My Trike

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Mounting a cooler over the fan intake might not be ideal.....but with an open engine and light load you should be fine.

I would be more worried about have the correct springs on the oil control than I would be be worried about the cooler over intake.

Pull the fan housing off and clean out the mouse nest, dirt dobbers, wasp nest.

Change the oil.

Adjust the valves.

Put a simple cooler on it.

Clean out the carbs.

Clean the points.

Change the condenser.

Change the spark plugs.

Crank it up.

Monitor the oil pressure.

If it has decent pressure then don't worry about what pump is in it.

Drive it.

Drive it some more.

Check compression psi to see if it has evened out.

If then you have oil pressure and the compression is not crazy uneven and the head temp and oil temp stay reasonable. Run the fool out of it.

You have a modified engine you should be happy with the power. One day when it starts getting weak...low psi on 3....low oil pressure...ect.

Then start playing with the insides and put a better fan housing and oil cooler set up on it.

 

[vwbug72501]

+1 ThumbUp

 

[grandpanystrom61]

funny

I had just wrote down my plan of attack so I could be back on the road, and yes I will wait on new tires until I feel how these ride, they have flat spots in them from sitting to long at the neighbors house.

After getting the bushings and bearings replaced, torsion set proper, and all angles check out, than I finish out the above list.

Now I had replaced the OO9 distributor with the SVDA Ignitor ( Pentronix Flame Thrower ), was told with the Kardon carb's that this would help all run more smoother and even.

I did that 2 years ago I guess, any how all is set like in the installation video, after I get the cooler done and oil back in the engine I can set the timing, from what I have viewed and read I should be looking at 30 degrees @ 3000rpm's with the vacuum line disconnected.

A full day a head of me, so better get back to it, enjoy your day everyone.

Oh a question, I cleaned out the breather box, have 4 connections for hoses, one goes to left carb breather, a hose from each valve cover, and one hose from the oil fill tube vent,,,, but NO breather hose to the right carburetor breather base.

Why just the left side, or do I eliminate the left side and do not run hoses from the breather box to the carb breather base?? If it is a must that the both carb's should have hoses from the breather box to their breather, than could I put a T fitting in the hose from the oil filler tube and connect the right carb breather to it...... only have room on the breather box for 4 hose connectors......any thoughts would be helpful to me.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Yep get the backend together and safe.

Tires....

Yes you want new tires for safety sake, but put it after you know the engine will not need major work.

Yep...is good to replace that 009. That is a long complex story. That distributor was originally for an industrial engine that ran full throttle 3750 rpm all the time. It has a straight timing advance and did not need any dynamic variables. A simple unit and it became popular with the drag racers. They are only worried about wide open and seldom have much vacuum to work with.

A street engine does not run wot all the time. The vacuum can give it some dynamic control. Timing has some load sensing adjustment happening. That makes things so much more drivable and pleasing.

Pertronics makes some good stuff. If someone had experience with that with carbs like yours then it is an excellent place to start. With a modified engine it will need non-stock timing dynamic control.

Yes on 30 degree total no vacuum. If it is higher compression and tight deck maybe a little less. If it is lower compression and loose deck more timing.

Vents... none of that is stock stuff you have there. A lot of folks do vent the valve covers. It seems to make sense as a normal upright engine is vented at the valve covers. But.....the valve covers are not the top of the boxer engine....so it is not ideal. So yes valve covers, oil filler, and it you have it the fuel pump block off plate. I do not like putting the oil vapor back into the carbs....so nothing to the air filters. Free air. Also on that vent can you want a low fitting that will drain back into the engine.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

getting lost

Okay, I did understand the part about NO vent to carb breathers, only had the left, so a quick fix.

Are you suggesting buying new valve covers and oil extension tube so that they are no longer vented to the breather box,

or are you saying valve covers and extension tube vented to breather box ?

And yes there is the cover plate mounted where the fuel pump would go, are you saying there is a adapter plate one can buy that allows this to be a place for a vent hose ?

I know if I have valve covers with no vent hoses, well I will not see that white oil/water mock again. And seeing it really made me wonder about that vent to the carb., so glad that is going away.

I also have this new breather box that only has 3 hose ports on it, guess why I was asking, plus I see it, than I don't, made me wonder what is better, oh yeah no smog test here in my area, so no worries in that area.

have a good evening everyone.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

There is a huge amount of debate about the venting. Some several research done on it with all kinds of different conclusions. Even one fully documented test with supporting video that the 3-4 valve cover completely fills with oil. I have tried to reproduce that test and have never gotten that result.

So I am going to say that there can be a large amount of variables that effect how the venting can work.

I will give you my opinion on it all.

1) there should be near zero pressure to vent. The flat design with 180 degree counterparts does not displace air in and out of the block. The air does move around a lot but volume stays the same. The only thing in there to vent to the outside world is ring blow by/leakage. All rings leak a very small amount.

2) increased bore engines will leak more at the rings because there is more circumference to seal.

3) There is the potential for 3-4 valve cover to fill with oil. So do not vent that cover.

4) Mount the vent box as high as reasonably possible.

5) Put 1-2 valve cover and oil filler into the box.

6) Put a hose on the bottom of box as a drain back and hook to a fuel pump cover plate.

7) Free air vent the other side (opposite of hoses) of the box filter sponge/element.

Others will dissagree....is a hard subject.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I had read about that, the left side filling full up with oil, I took it as it was because of no vent causing the oil to back up inside the valve cover. I will read over it again.

It is not that high, would say even with carb. height, so new longer mounting bracket or find a new location for it.

These box's are not air tight, both have a raised tap keeping the lid up, this allows a opening around the lid so that air can go in and out as needed

Now what side of valve cover had the most condensation, were clear water drained out when I popped it open, the LEFT side was the worst, so no venting of left valve cover, yet we vent the right side, is this to relief any back pressure so that oil drains and flows as designed ?

Note: I just inspected the fuel pump cover plate, it has a center port on the plate all threaded, all I have to do is remove it, drill thru the plate so the port is open, install a barbed nipple and that is done.

Breather box is currently mounted off the trans mount bolts on brackets, I looked and the highest point and available is on the rear of the body above the fan shroud. The bolts from the mounting of the temp tank are just perfect to attach brackets from so the breather box hangs up inside above everything, to high ??

This all lines up with a direct drop down to the fuel pump plate port, and than the other to vent hoses from the right side will route just fine to the box.

Now, I did not really have the room before, so I had mounted a bracket for the cooler off to the left side using the body's rear cross brace to hang it from. It is forward of the wheel area under the body.

Any how, if the breather box is moved, than I have the area to move the cooler to a more favorable spot, maybe as there is other stuff I have to work around, and of course truly see if it fits, but first need to move the breather box out of the way. I am sure the cooler will fit, just a matter of making the bracket so the cooler will sit were I need it to be.

This will look much cleaner and organized, and the cooler will be in front of the fan area so that air flow thru the cooler at idle will be present, and that is one purpose of the oil cooler, to help cool down the oil at idle when it is usually the hottest and some engines stall out from it, normally both relief valves open at this point so oil flows thru the cooler and sump until high pressure is reduced so springs close valves, concept is to keep the engine cool at idle so it does not over heat sitting in traffic or at a stop sign. Am I getting this right....

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

There is very little oil pumped into the valve cover. A tiny timed pulse for the rocker shaft is all.

The article claimed rotational slinging (windage) from the crank pushed oil up the push rod tubes.

I don't believe it because I could not force it to happen. What I believe is that the oil pressure bypass.....as where the excess pressure is ejectected from the oil control piston and spring.....is directly at the opening of a push rod tube......if you use too large of an oil pump and it bypassed some huge amount.....I can see that pushing oil up the tubes.

I moved all that somewhere else in my block then redirected larger and full time oil up the push rods. Then squirters on the rockers and a baffle in the block. So now lots of oil into the covers and back down the tubes.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Forgot to say...

Most of the high heat time is at highway cruise.

Sustained high rpm is what really heats up the oil.

Full throttle hard mountain uphill being the worst case scenario.

One thing to watch for when up gearing the trans....ie...5 speed...freeway flyer....is that you are attempting to lower your rpm at highway speeds.

But....you are also lowering the fan speed and reducing the cooling. And again you are light loaded open engine ect ect.....you will probably never notice anything like this. But if it was in a bus you would so the potential is there. You have the gauges so you can learn what it likes.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Good morning to everyone, a sunny day spring day it is, hope all have one of these today.

That is a lot of work, I mean seeing the need for it, figuring out how to achieve it, than doing the work so it happens.

I do see what you are talking about with the control valve, I can see that happening, but I also see that stock pressure springs should be used, some say until the oil system is upgraded to a full flow system with larger oil cooler, than the rear spring, by #4, should be upgraded a bit to help keep a working oil pressure with in the upgraded engine.

That is interesting that you did that Rex, with all the other upgrades I can see the need for it, I bet you are proud of your skills and Trike.

I need to order my bearings today, I just need to find the site that has all that I need, like stock pressure relief valve springs, and a knowledgeable person who will know what bearings I need from the pic's I have so I get the correct ones.

I will get it done, just need to spend the time searching it out a bit more first before ordering stuff.

Enjoy the day, looks so nice outside.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

We had some severe rain the past couple night.

Right now it is cloudy and almost drizzling. Hot hot and muggy.

I gotta patch up a mower and cut my grass this weekend. Already almost knee high in spots.

I think CB performance has stock type springs.

The bearings are probably regular industrial sizes. Look for numbers on the edges. Something like 6208 2rs....not saying that is the number....just an example. Then an industrial supply or bearing specialty store will have them for a lot less than the car parts store.

Yeah....mine is purdy far out there. Very little functions as vw intended anymore.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Looking it over I see what I had looked up, kinda, here is the picture.

View attachment 55687

There is nothing on the back side of the fan shroud.

and if I remember correctly, that case vent box is suppose to be cleaned every so often, and my mind thinks there is some type of filter material used inside it.

View attachment 55688

Taken from right side of engine, and the first pic was taken from the left side (3 and 4) cylinders.

I have no idea if it has ran all this time with out a oil cooler, I highly doubt it because they did take a few trips on it, so I have heard, so I will have to go with the fact that the old cooler was removed because of leaks, or I pray that was the case.

Now I got to get a new one. From what I read I would not benefit a lot with a external mounted cooler, but would do better with a full flow external oil filter set up with just the stock oil cooler.

If this is a aftermarket fan shroud, did the copy the venting and flanges of the original one ? I just read how well the Germans design the fan shroud to cool the engine, and why the internal cooler in the shroud caused the #3 cylinder to run hotter than others, lack of air flow to cool it, so I have learned a lot today.

We can do so much to look cool, think we are doing the engine better, and the reality is it all just cost money and really does nothing, sometimes create problems rather than fix them....

Good day everyone, just trying to get this back together. One thing just kept leading to another, but it is done to this point.

Moved breather box and rerouted venting hoses, much cleaner looking, this opened up the space in front of the fan shroud input air flow, was able to mount bracket nicely and center the oil cooler with it a few inch's away from the fans opening so air flow is not totally blocked by the cooler.

Now this lead to the fuel lines being rerouted, because of cooler mounting, and I noticed a dual port fuel regulator... is this something that is suppose to be on a dual carb engine ????

The current dial single port fuel regulator is new, at least when I had the carbs rebuilt a few years back, remember just minimal run time in the drive way on things since I have owned the trike.

Okay just want to get what is suppose to be here so all works well. So a fuel auto shut off for the electric fuel pump is needed, but if one looks at the above pics the can see how all was squeezed in front of the fan shroud area, and if I have to correct the fuel lines, I believe for the best performance that the fuel lines should be the same length from the T after the fuel regulator............here is were I wondered about the dual port fuel regulator.

Yes all ran before, fine as far as I know, so is there a real need to change the fuel regulator ? I was just looking at how it is set up and wondered how it kept a even pressure to both carb.'s, but here is where I realized that the fuel lines should be equal distances from the T block to the carb.'s so that it may have a better chance at having a equal PSI in the fuel lines.

Over thinking it ???????

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

All these small carbs.....even the dual throated weber's are small.....they all have small floats. They will not take but a couple psi before over riding.

So yes you must have correct pressure. There are some low pressure pumps....some internal regulated pumps.....some regulators.

Any combination that gets you to pressure should be ok.

That little round dial type thing is not a true regulator.....more of an adjustable orifice or restrictor. I have used one before and was not pleased.

What is the other one?

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I think I may have gotten lost on the parts website, to many buttons and things, LOL

I did not like them as they were rated at a higher PSI, 3 to 9 and 5 to something, and now I think they may have been for EFI system, **** I do not know, or remember what site, maybe CB performance or carid.

This current fuel pump is new basically, just replaced what was on the trike, and they said I would need a new regulator and to set it to 1.5 psi. Like I said it runs and I noticed no issue, but running only in drive way right now.

Those low pressure self regulating fuel pumps are expensive, do they also need a auto shut off relay ?

Or just get what I have mounted secure and centered, get on the road and run it and see what it does or does not do, than go from there......... or is getting this corrected ( better regulator-even if means new fuel pump or self regulated pump.. idea is it better to eliminate the issue that will arise now, or later when it happens.

Okay the fuel pump I have is a Facet that is 12volt, nothing about what psi range it works at, but the box has a sticker on it that says "Legal in California only for racing vehicles, not permitted on highways" so I think it maybe to much and with that dial regulator, maybe not the best. Change it or pressure test line before carb to see what is really there ?

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

The little faucet "clicker" pump is a favorite for small engines. 3 to 4 psi usually.

If what you have seems to work then just check the psi at carbs. Equal length is not critical but equal psi is.

I would on/off the pump with the ignition switch.

If the tank is higher than carbs I would have a shut off valve....preferably an electric that operates with the pump.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Getting back on track

I did not mean to throw a curve ball, but as I was having to reroute the fuel lines I just thought about what I had read, see if I could do any more justice to the fuel system.

Okay for now, I do have the tank highest point, not ideal, but it works for now. Two feet or so after the line leaves the tank is a filter, changeable one, and than the on/off manual flow cut off valve. I have not ordered the electric shut off relay for the fuel pump, not yet, still trying to make sure I get what I need. I do think I will upgrade the fuel regulator to a better functioning one.

Excuse me... I did have to slip out of state yesterday, we had to go help out a friend, just a few hours drive, all is well.

I have to go back to the bearing shop, just do not understand how I was given the wrong bearings. I took the old ones with me so I could make sure I would get the right bearings. I hope to get that resolved today, maybe get them reset into the trailing arm and get moving forward again.

Again thank you everyone for your help. I really appreciate the ability to chat with others and get their feedback and idea's.

Have a great day.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I will sketch out some explanations and descriptions about fuel pumps and put it over in tech tech tech.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I did get things ordered that was needed. Kind funny not all was in one place, but it is done.

Things will come to me a few days apart, but it gives me time to put the new parts on as they come. It is funny that the bearings I need first, well they will be here first.

I really want to get rid of that stinger exhaust system, had to remove it all just so I could get in and clean up that fuel pump mounting area, old nasty gasket and goop, but all done and back together.

I can spend tomorrow looking for a fuel pressure gauge so I can test the system, I just want to make sure I am getting the correct pressure to the carb's.

Crappy weather for me for a few days, so I am not missing out on any good riding weather, not yet at least, LOL

Everyone have a good evening.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

A 4 into 1 and a stinger are the most performing way to go.

Sometimes those upright buggy stingers look right and sometimes not.

I personally do not like it on yours at all.

How loud do you want it? I like being loud and obnoxious......lol

The buggy dual cannons are a good looker for a trike. But they are paired wrong.....not a header at all....but are a free flowing exhaust.

Maybe even consider a side winder? If you want less noise.



Or a tri mil?

 

[grandpanystrom61]

The current exhaust is made by Tri Mil. I do like how it sounds, not super loud, but load enough to be heard coming and going that is for sure.

I think it is more the fact that it covers the face of the engine, very hard to get in behind it, so most the time I need to unbolt it and shift it around out of my way to get the work done, and than if I get the tank down up front like I want, that back area will be were I mount a little cargo carrier. Just not a good place for the heat of the exhaust, not where I want it.

Now instantly I seen my error. Manual cut off valve in fuel line is first after tank, than the in line fuel filter. That way you can turn off supply of fuel when you need to change the filter itself, Duh......... wake up Andy.

I was over in tech tech tech land and I was looking over the fuel system drawings, very helpful to see it drawn out and the options that one may do. That is awesome you took the time to put it up, helps me, and I am sure it will help many others.

So I am getting a little confused, is that solenoid also the electrical cut off switch to the fuel pump ? I see you can manually set the PSI for what you need, but my mind says why the wires ?

Or if the switch is normally closed, no flow with no power, so if it is wired to the fuel pump power supply, when fuel pump is on the solenoid gets power and opens for flow of fuel. The adjustment is what controls the PSI going to the carbs, but I do not see how this cuts off power to the fuel pump when the pump is not needed because line pressure is as needed.

Or is the fuel pump to run all the time, pressure soleniond opens and closes when pump is on, regulated fuel flows to carbs, but this is why for the over pressure return line, ideally back to tank if possible ?

back in a few.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

lost and found

And I thought my mind was alert more in the morning, not as much as I thought.

Okay, read things over slowly, this electric solenoid is just a valve, can be used in place of the manual cut off valve. It can handle the 0 to 101 psi line pressure, but it is not a pressure regulator.

I need to go look again.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

That valve was just an example.

A bit pricey but has the technical specs.

Ok....so you are asking how to turn the pump and/or valve on and off?

The pump probably draws to many amps to run directly through the ignition switch.

So you need a relay to handle the load.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

That first example of the fuel system, well I get real confused with the regulator at the end of the flow, as I see it the carbs would feel the pressure of what the fuel pump puts out, not what the pressure regulator is controlling it at.

I still have not found a pressure regulator that has a bypass port, just in and out ports, I just think I have looked in the wrong places.

The trike never had a return line to the tank. It just ran from tank to electric fuel pump, than the Empi pressure regulator, than this T fitting so that fuel can flow to each carb.

I can see the point of the fuel getting warmed up if looped back to low pressure side of the fuel supply to the pump, probably not an issue with the open air flow in that area on this trike. I think one would just try it, if vapor lock occurs than one might have to route it all differently.

So, from the tank to a cut off valve (maybe electric solenoid or manual type valve ) than to the fuel filter and into the fuel pump. From here high pressure fuel goes into the fuel pressure regulator and the output is the lower controlled pressured fuel which is than routed to the carb.'s ( this were I really got lost with the regulator at the end of the flow in example one in the tech tech tech thread, and also I only have the single supply port on the carb's.

So if I can find such a regulator that has the bypass port, than I would just loop the bypass fuel back to the low side of the fuel pump, but my mind says to bring the bypass fuel back into the system as far away from the pump, like right after the fuel filter. It does take up a little more fuel line, but this might also help mix any warmer fuel with more cooler fuel so one can help eliminate a vapor lock up from happening. I say routing the bypass line right back into my current tank would not be worth the effort. The tank will be were the warmest fuel is, at least that is what I think with it being mounted up high in the back like it is.

But I did make a note of this return line on the other tank drawing I have so that it is not forgotten in the future.

I need a break mentally, plus time for meds, and to take care of a few other things, I will be back soon.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

A blocking style regulator does work but is not as steady and even of pressure as you have to dead head the pump to stop flow.

Controlling something this low of psi is more troublesome than higher pressure systems.

http://www.jegs.com/s/tech-articles/how-blocking-style-and-bypass-style-regulators-work.html

 

[grandpanystrom61]

That little bypass regulator (525 series) is expensive, but I did read and study the two types to see and understand the difference. Feel I got set up for that high price tag. I have not ordered it, have to talk myself into it, and still I would need a auto shut off type switch/relay for the fuel pump, unless it is to run constantly. I am a bit off today, think I need a break. time to go feed Grazer and set by the pond.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

The by pass regulator is a pricey one, need to look at other suppliers first for the best price before ordering one.

I will get back to this, trying to do to many things at once gets me chasing my tail to much. I am tapping new threads right now for the new oil temperature sensor. I had to get a smaller thread size than the first I bought, thought it was going to just replace the relief valve plug, but no cooler meant more work and making things as I go.

I will have a in line oil temperature sensor that I can place in the return line from the oil cooler before it goes back into the case. The cost to make it is near 50.00, the tap and drill bit set I bought for the fuel pump vent, so I did not add that to the cost of the material for the oil sensor mount. It is all I can think to call it.

Everyone please enjoy your day.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

what I finished up today.

Good afternoon, so I spent the morning finishing out the tapping of this bushing, cleaned everything up super clean, than put it all together and installed it. Now to fill the cooler with oil first, than connect the coolers input hose and fill the engine with fresh oil.

New factory oil pressure springs where installed yesterday, and now the oil temp. sensor is inline on the return flow of oil from the cooler before it goes back into the engine.

Bearings came in the mail today, so I hope to get that done this rainy weekend, and maybe the Trike back together.



right side view.



left side and a view of the inline sensor.



I used the wheelie bar mounting bolts to also secure the uprights on each side for

the cooler. I ran a cross brace to each upright and attached the cooler to the cross

brace, of course after I made mounting brackets for the cooler so I could do that.

A bit worn out, but thinking of the bearings and how I will set the new ones, I was thinking of using a bearing drive punch, can borrow the set from the local parts store.

Or do I just freeze the new grease packed bearings, so they contract, and than set them ?

Never done a VW before, do they tape back in easy, or is time to get them pressed in ?

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

From what I remember....it is two of a more normal bearing and is not unusually tight. Unlike those wide one piece bearings in front wheel drive cars that take a big press to put in.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Yes, they were easy bearings to remove and install. I think I got the new ones in quicker than the old ones out. More time with clean up and getting all ready for the new bearings.

I did have some issues getting it back together, new parts are tight, so first I had to set the trailing arm on the hub assembly and than put the bushing end into position and the hex bolt.

We will find out soon how much this helped correct the old issues.

New air shocks should be hear today, once installed I can get the trike off the jack stands. For now I think I will just get a pressure gauge installed inline so I can monitor the line pressure to the carb.'s, I just want to be able to ride around some this summer, see what the trike is about, I think that is a upgrade I should worry about later when I do my tank upgrade.

I can get all mapped out and drawn up to what is needed and how all is getting mounted and wired in.

The temp. tank on the back so high up, if my rules of plumping are correct, for every foot the source is raised higher than the output, the output flow is at 1 lb. per foot of pressure, so guess just divide by 12 to get psi?

My point is that my fuel system is set up so it has it's own gravity force, not on purpose, just a flaw in doing something with out truly thinking it totally out or not truly knowing what you are doing, but the members at this site really do share info and help others figure it out. Awesome everyone.