My Trike

[Jack Klarich]

Big question, can I check and set my Toe in on the rear tires in my garage ? I thought about this, and all I thought of was chalking out a large T square on the floor, roll the trike rear end over the head of the T align the wheel axle to the line, put the front tire's center line on the leg line of the T. Now if the rear is really out of align I might have one axle over the line and the other side off, forward of the line for severe toe in, behind the line would be negative toe in, dead on the line should be zeroed in.

Once you feel you have the trike square on your floor

Run a string from the front axle to the rear tire on each side of the trike (tape the string on the tires at the same height)

Now measure each side and write it down

This will give you the setback on the wheels ( check and adjust camber before checking the set back)

Camber will throw all your readings off

Changing the setback to as near zero as possible will change your thrust angle of your alignment

This should make your trike track straighter and less tire wear

As far as the toe adjustment, there are several ways to do this

You can measure the inside front edge of the rear tires at the exact same height

Now, do the same for the rear of the tires ( I like to chalk a line with a square or string to make sure I get the same height )

Once you know this figure you can adjust your toe, you should be real close when you are done

Remeasure again what are your measurements? If right you should see the value you want

Sight down the tires, you may have to lay down to do this

If you are toed in you should see (from the back of the trike) both inside edges of the tires slightly in, if not re measure and do it again

This is a poor mans way of setting toe

 

[grandpanystrom61]

got a head of myself

Okay, needed that info, at least a confirmation on my idea about it all.

I will get things marked out on the floor, bring in the trike, and than do the replacement of suspension bushings on the control arms, open the rear drums and see what I do have, look for old brake parts to see if I undid what should have been left alone. But who would have thought that front brakes would be put on the rear end, only makes sense to some trike builders, now me. Memory is not my best trait, that is the main reason I need to look again, plus I need to get access so I can replace the bearings and hub seals. Than as I get all back together I can adjust and align, make sure all is true, recheck it, and than tighten all up.

I say look for old brake parts, mainly because I do not remember if I replaced slave cylinders, it would have been the smart thing to do, I just need to confirm what I did, medications and medical issues screw me at times.

I really wish I knew 100% what year this rear end I have, so will try to take pic's to see if helps anyone identify what it might be, if it matters, does the exact year matter on wheel bearings ? or just the general 5 year area of production ? Engine numbers said it was produced in Aug73 and sold to public in 74 out of Mexico, some of the photo's of work being done on VW's, lead me to the years of 72 to 74 super beetle rear end, than the comment that the super beetle was first to use the dual port master cylinder, and they also had self adjusting brake design. Like I said, what I read if my mind kept the facts right.

Loads of info and help already, wow, mind is swimming in it all, but I know where to start and it is all down in print now, so I can come back and read it all over.

I am so excited to have found this site, help, and info, now I have the help I needed to move forward successfully.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I use long straight edges like you are using the floor lay out lines. Same theory.

I also hang a plumb bob from the bottom of steering neck center. Then adjust to get the track centered to the neck.

And again. The trans and engine are the same for a super or a standard. So difficult to tell there. What makes a super be a super is the front suspension.

If it is really a mexi beetle then it is unlikely it was a super. But anything that was super specific was cut off and thrown away when it was cut up to become a trike.

Anything I think I can see from the other pics makes me think mid 70's USA std beetle.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Home from work.....

Ok I wrote about trans Id before.

https://www.triketalk.com/forum/threads/35579-Tech-Tech-Tech-or-So-you-want-to-build-a-trike/page5

That will put you into the right type.

As far as I remember....all the stub axle bearings were the same on beetles. Busses ect had other bearings.

Finding the exact identity of your trans...... well maybe. It is over 40 yrs old and there is no telling what kind of mix and match parts it has been repaired with. You can look up the serial number.

All the numbers on vw parts that are raised cast in numbers.....are the mold or casting number from before before machining and being assigned to an application. Those numbers are just a little better than useless. The numbers you look for are stamped INTO (Not raised) from the casting. These will tell you something. Find it and we will hunt it up. At least you will know what year the trans case came from. So many different years of parts will fit together that it could be a hodge podge like mine is.

The engine.

It looks to be a later style 1600 based engine. That is what you want for sure. All the aftermarket parts are geared for this engine. Also that casting number AS41 is the better of engine cases.

Yours is not stock. The only engine with dual carbs were not an upright type one beetle engine. Those are probably not stock type solex carbs. It takes a serious carb guru to turn stock solex into a dual setup. Those look like aftermarket Kadrons to me.

The Mexico on the case could be that it is a replacement case or engine. A lot of the repair parts came from the plants in Mexico and Brazil.

Does the case have the fuel pump mounting flange? If not then would be after 75 model.

That sloped top fan housing sure looks good. I even wanted one years ago. But they don't work well but should be fine on an open engine. It also means the oil cooler is not on top of the engine anymore. A remote cooler and oil lines must be somewhere under the back.

Looks like someone did some work with that engine. No telling what could be inside that.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

getting there

Got the axle nuts off, not sure if all is set up correct, so I took pic's of things as I took off the drum.

First things first, that stamped number on the trans is AH 4506468, and I have to add that it is a 5 speed, was told that is aftermarket upgrade, not sue myself.

Okay give up on the super beetle idea, but that is what I looked up to see the rear brakes, those pics looked like mine. Now a few pics. Not, guess again they were not saved in the proper format.

The carbs are Solex H40/44EIS, that is what they say on them, plus when they were rebuilt that is what was discussed as the model of carb, as I had to get a new body for one of them.

I am off to figure out this picture thing, some where there is a way to control how to save them when they are taken.

Again thanks for all the input, oh yeah, I had to cut off those mounts that they welded on the torsion tube/spring plate that the head lights where mounted on. If my pics would work I could show all what I found, a pre threaded hole in a flat area in a very usable location. Thinking of using it for attaching the mounting bracket for the head light. Have to get my pics up.

Started on the right side first.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Ok that would be an 68 to 72 trans case.

But as a 5 speed conversion it is super heavily modified. That was a several thousand dollar modification. Nice! Hang onto that like it is gold.

A picture of a super trans/axle/brakes would look just like yours as they are the same anyway (year vs same year).

But now we know it is heavily modified and is likely a mish mash of different year parts. Absolutely nothing wrong with that really. But it does make it hard on someone newish to vw to be able to identify and repair.

Like mine....once I am gone no-one will know what all the parts are. Even a vw guru. Half stuff ain't even vw to start with. You get the idea......lots of learning and researching to do.

That is probably an older aftermarket dual carb setup. There are several clones over the years. From empi, brosol, Kadron. Then the original aftermarket solex.

These are not stock and are made up for the dual configuration. Good carbs for a mild to medium hot rod engine. If you ever need to tune or change jets or parts then most people refer to these as Kadrons even if they are made by one of the others.

The parts and gasket kits interchange. All still plentiful and readily available.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

moving along

This awesome getting some confirmation of what I have to work with, what it is, and a idea of it's value.

I can see it is something that is worth my efforts, meaning I can possibly get it back, but I have grandchildren that would be pleased to get it later.

Okay, took time, but figured out this new phone and I can only take a set size of photo's, with the smallest setting I can use the crop tool to get them with in the limit range so I can post them, at least most of them.

I have to remove the lamp mounting tab off the torsion tube, used the angle grinder to do the job.

and the left side once removed still need smooth out that welded area.

But now what do I do, re weld them back in place when the other work is done ?

I found these mounting holes, tapped and ready to be used.

I just happened to have the bolt size I needed, but now I wonder about vibration of rear end effecting the new mount. I measured 7 3/4 inch's needed to extend the lamp out to basic same area, do we think that 1/4 inch steel would be firm at that length, maybe it is 3/16 thick. I guess just try it and see.

Here are the brake parts left from when I corrected them a few years back, at least I thought that is what I was doing.

Now I do not remember where those large washer/spacers went, no paint on them, so I believe they where on the inside of the drum on the spline. and there is this spacer on the outside along with 4 shim's on each side that are against the bearing.

I do remember the left side had wider brake pad's on it and bad slave cylinder, and it was shimmed up more than the right side. Why only one set of brake shoes in the old parts, kept those that where the same size as the new ones. Shim's, think I split up the thin ones on the axle spline, 4 on each side, because it keeps the drum from pushing all the way in against the bearing, plus it looks like to keep the seal from damage, and than the drum has to align over the brake pads correctly for proper operation. Does any of this look normal or correct ? Out side spacer seems to be taking up open space on the spline keeping the axle nut on the threaded area and inline with carter pin hole.

My tank, it is a temp set up, getting the shut off valve in a few days.

and here is the instrument panel I did and Belle's new goggles She was to be my wife's new friend, she is, but she picked me as her buddy. She is always with me, at my feet, or sleeping up against me. Ever fight with a dog for cover's ? Belle watch's me and is always making me take breaks, or even naps if needed. My condition does limit me and I can push myself to far to much, Belle seems to be my care taker these days. Not sure if she will ride on the trike with me, but she loves here goggles.

I found my data from my 1st compression test, so I will check valves clearance, adjust if needed, and than perform another compression test. I need to compare them after I had screwed up the timing with old distributor. Than I will finish dismantling the trailing arm so it can be removed for bushing replacement, oh and get new bearings for each axle.

Everyone have a great day, and thank you for your time DeathbySnuSnu.

 

[paws]

Glad you’ve got Belle to help! Always nice to have a buddy nearby.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Wait.....What the....

Back up and take a pic of those brake drums.

That looks like early short axle short spline swing axle drums with spacers and extra shims to make them fit.

I think there were some Thing drums for irs that were wide 5. But they would be long spline as in no big spacer on the outside under nut.

This does work though. Some people adapt early 5 lugs to a later 4 lug irs to make a car have an older classic look.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

And....

I just snap pics with the phone then use an app (image shrink) to make them smaller.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

So here is the drum with an adapter for the wide spoke rims, which are also a 5 lug pattern, just smaller.



And you mentioned a area for the mechanical fuel pump, not sure, but on the rear right side of the oil pump is this.

would the fuel pump mount on this lower right corner where that oval cover plate is ?

 

[rhino 2]

So here is the drum with an adapter for the wide spoke rims, which are also a 5 lug pattern, just smaller.

View attachment 55654

And you mentioned a area for the mechanical fuel pump, not sure, but on the rear right side of the oil pump is this.

View attachment 55655 would the fuel pump mount on this lower right corner where that oval cover plate is ?

Why not use an electric fuel pump wired into the ignition switch ,....And mount it as close to the fuel tank as you can...:Shrug:

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Why not use an electric fuel pump wired into the ignition switch ,....And mount it as close to the fuel tank as you can...:Shrug:

I do have a electric fuel pump with a pressure regulator. If the carb's only need 2 lbs of fuel pressure, than the electric pump provides more pressure than needed. I was asked if there was a mechanical fuel pump port.

With the temp tank being high as it is, there is a siphon of fuel, maybe sticky float valve, but got a shut off valve on the way. A mechanical pump would eliminate the siphon issue. I do believe that is what it is about.

 

[Sidecarbill]

Mechanical pump won't necessarily keep gas from draining into the carb. Mechanical fuel pumps are a nightmare on old VW's. You really can't find a good one, they all put out to much pressure. If you shim with gaskets to lower pressure usually it will create volume problems. I'd go low pressure electric. Put one on my friends bus 1 1/2 lbs pressure I believe and no more problem. Put an electronic shut off valve so it can't flood the engine.

 

[rhino 2]

Mechanical pump won't necessarily keep gas from draining into the carb. Mechanical fuel pumps are a nightmare on old VW's. You really can't find a good one, they all put out to much pressure. If you shim with gaskets to lower pressure usually it will create volume problems. I'd go low pressure electric. Put one on my friends bus 1 1/2 lbs pressure I believe and no more problem. Put an electronic shut off valve so it can't flood the engine.

I put one on my VW Dune Buggy......Way back in the early 70's...

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I asked about fuel pump mount to narrow down the year or type of engine case.

In 1975 they no longer had a mechanical pump so the mount was not machined.

The picture is not the fuel pump mount. But it does tell us something.

That is a universal replacement engine case. That oval plate is a blank off plate for the type 3 engine dip stick. That stray bolt and threaded hole that does nothing is the mount point for the type 2 moustache bar. It probably has the fuel pump mount also (beside distributor). Thus....universal...whichever it needs to be type 1 2 or 3. All the same engine with the difference being everything that bolts to the outside of the engine.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Ok.

So that is not the brake drums that go with an irs rear. I would say that those 66 or 67 swing axle drums.

This is what it should look like.



But what you have can work. Just have to deal with the shims and spacers to get them to sit and tighten up right.

You can even get them in other bolt patterns.

 

[peteg59]

The mech. fuel pump is mounted just to the right of the distributor & to the left of the gen/alt. stand.

If the engine came setup for a mech. pump and you're now running an electric pump, you might see a block off plate shaped like this:

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I did get the compression test done after checking valve clearance. 120 lbs pressure on #1 and #2 cylinders, #3 I had issues getting the tool tightened all the way, so it only got to 100 or 102 lbs pressure, yet #4 cylinder was like 137 to 140 lbs pressure. Valve clearance set at .006 gap, and yes I double checked the clearance after tightening the lock nuts.

So the axle spline is to long for the narrow drums, or the drums on IRS systems are wider and use a longer axle spline.

Just trying to get an idea of what needs to be replaced to get all correct, yes I understand that could lead to a possible change in lug nut pattern or rim change. Just wondering the approach one would take to correct it.

Go to a junk yard and find the beetle 72 to 74 with IRS and pull the brake, drums, backing plates, and axle splines?

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Hmmmm.

As far as I remember most all the drum diameter and shoe size were the same. I will look around for any info.

I can imagine that the very last of the US models as they got bigger may have had larger rear brakes to go with that weight.

At first just the spline got longer for durability reasons.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

So it appears I need to take off the chrome tin on the head if I want to have clear access so I can tighten the compression tester so I get a true reading.

With #4 testing at 140 plus lbs, I just feel I did not get true readings on the other cylinders, but maybe, just thought it would be a tighter range between the cylinders.

So much has changed in the last 20 years. I think I need to visit a few top end VW part houses and see what is all out there now for them.

I seen one add for rims, never new they made them, now a stock fitting drum with multiple bolt patterns, now that could have been used years go big time.

The spacer and shim's on the axle are more about drum position and the ability to tighten the axle nut correctly, not trying to torque it down on it's last threads, which would leave some free play in the spline and maybe the brake drum.

What do I do from here now that I know this. Run with what I have, it was working before ?

Or do I look at what is wrong, and do it up right, snag all the rear end off a 72 to 74 bug, what I need, and clean up and rebuild it, and put it all on the trike ? Guess most of it would be just swapping the new brake parts over.

Guidance, any of your thoughts are welcomed, love to read the input and ideas.

Asking because I was going to change the suspension bushings on trailing arms, have a little top to bottom slope in wheel bearings (left side worst), so was going to replace those. If I need to do other work in this area, well I have to disconnect brake lines and all that, probably should do the other work on each side of the rear end.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I would rebuild what I have already.

If you get the parts off a salvage yard they will be just as worn and in need of rebuild as what you currently have.

Put bushings and bearing in what you have.

The brake drums will work with the right spacers. If they are in good condition as far as wear to brake surface....run them, they worked before. Plus the adapters and rims line up with your fenders. If they are worn and in need of replacement then that opens up a whole new decision. Disc? New drums? Adapters? Change of bolt pattern? Change of rims?

As far as cranking pressure.

None of your numbers sound crazy low. But you do want them in the 10% difference range. Number 3 is the first to burn up and is usually the lowest one.

As it stands I would run it for a season and find out how it is and what I have. It had sat up a long time and it may all be from that. Run it and see if it even out or gets worse.

Again....What about oil cooler? Where is it?

 

[grandpanystrom61]

oil cooler, what is that ?

Okay, no oil cooler, as I take it would be a external looking radiator with heavy duty looking lines going to the engine block. Or is this oil cooler under the fan shroud. I will look up a 72 beetle engine break down and educate myself.

Oh, I did look and see the plate bolted over the area the fuel pump mounts, so that does help confirm the year of the block.

I do agree about running it and seeing what it is all about, I know I laid rubber with the right rear tire a few weeks back, just messing around checking the clutch and release range, wanted to see what happened if my foot slipped off the clutch pedal, now I know!

All I see is the rubber lines (that attach to the carb below the air filter) which lead behind the fan to a box that has two other rubber lines going to valve covers. And on the back side there is a hose that loops from on port to another a few inch's above it, take it to be the heater tubes ???

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I am a bit old school and like the look of the trike , so I will get it fix up and enjoy it, at least until something wears or breaks in the rear, and than I will revamp it or upgrade it.

Oil cooler, wow, can not believe one is not used on this engine being in this hot dry state. Need to check this out.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

The stock oil cooler would be inside the fan housing. The stock fan housing that is. I have not seen a good pic.....But yours looks like a slope top aftermarket housing. Those have no provisions for an oil cooler. It is completely dependent on you adding an external oil cooling system.

If someone put that housing on without adding an external cooler the oil will overheat and you will seize a bearing. This is common aftermarket hot rod modifications.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Hoses from filter bases and valve covers to a box thing would be case vent.

Hose from intake manifold to the other manifold would be a balance tube. Helps dual single barrels idle better.

A hose sticking out of the fan housing near #3 And doing a u turn and back in a couple inches above the other would be a bypass hose hooked to a oil cooler flange adapter. Those would supposed to go to a cooler set up.

 

[vwbug72501]

http://www.scatvw.com/oil-coolers-accessories/

Sounds like you have the bypass adapter but no cooler. You can add the cooler easily enough for $32.99 with slip on ends and some more rubber lines. These coolers are often mounted on the front of the upright fan housing in front of the fan intake opening. I wouldn't run it in any heat with out the cooler. There might be one already mounted up on the shroud (hard to see) and someone bypassed it due to a cooler or hose leak.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

pics of what I see

Looking it over I see what I had looked up, kinda, here is the picture.



There is nothing on the back side of the fan shroud.

and if I remember correctly, that case vent box is suppose to be cleaned every so often, and my mind thinks there is some type of filter material used inside it.



Taken from right side of engine, and the first pic was taken from the left side (3 and 4) cylinders.

I have no idea if it has ran all this time with out a oil cooler, I highly doubt it because they did take a few trips on it, so I have heard, so I will have to go with the fact that the old cooler was removed because of leaks, or I pray that was the case.

Now I got to get a new one. From what I read I would not benefit a lot with a external mounted cooler, but would do better with a full flow external oil filter set up with just the stock oil cooler.

If this is a aftermarket fan shroud, did the copy the venting and flanges of the original one ? I just read how well the Germans design the fan shroud to cool the engine, and why the internal cooler in the shroud caused the #3 cylinder to run hotter than others, lack of air flow to cool it, so I have learned a lot today.

We can do so much to look cool, think we are doing the engine better, and the reality is it all just cost money and really does nothing, sometimes create problems rather than fix them....

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Yep. Sorry.

That is what the cooler would hook to.

Also a stock late model ie 1600 dual port like you have there would have had the best cooling vw ever had on a beetle. Even an aftermarket hot rod part would have a hard time of matching the performance of the original.

A fairly large square cooler with its own electric fan can do fairly well if mounted where it can get plenty air flow.

The early engines up until the 1600 had the cooler inside in the direct air flow of the air going towards 3 and 4. The air flow was fine....All that was engineered in....All worked as it should on the smaller engines. But was not capable on the largest engine. Not that it blocked flow but that cooling that side with already hot air did not work out.

So here we get what is called the dog house oil cooler. The cooler got moved out of the direct flow. It is now in its own add on lean too (dog house). Then a larger fan and a separate ducted air flow to the cooler. It is a system that is hard to beat.

That adapter on the cooler flange directs what would be the cooler oil flow out.

Full flow is tapping into the direct flow from the pump. All the oil all the time goes through it. You get cooling whether you need it or not.

I think I described all this somewhere before.

 

[vwbug72501]

I had the external oil cooler shown in the Scat page that I posted a link to on several engines over many years. Put thousands of hard miles on them and never had a heat problem. The cooler was mounted over the fan input opening on the back of the upright shroud. If you get the 50102 cooler listed, it should work fine.