vtx 1800 5th gear power

[meredog]

it seems most of my riding (2 up) is done in fourth gear. It seems it is "sruggling" in 5th gear.<br />
was considering getting a trailer but not confident it has the ummmphh to tow it in 5th gear.<br />
is this normal ? Champion trike

 

[Baz]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>meredog</strong>
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<div class="message">it seems most of my riding (2 up) is done in fourth gear. It seems it is "sruggling" in 5th gear.<br />
was considering getting a trailer but not confident it has the ummmphh to tow it in 5th gear.<br />
is this normal ? Champion trike</div>

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</div>Have you lowered the final drive ratio as part of the Trike conversation & if so by what % ???

 

[JJTRIKER]

You should have plenty of power talk to your installer/mechanic
i have rode vtx 1800 trikes and there shouldn't be a problem

 

[meredog]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Baz</strong>
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<div class="message">Have you lowered the final drive ratio as part of the Trike conversation & if so by what % ???</div>

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</div> ??????????? I purchased it new at a Honda dealer in Little rock Arkansas so i really don't know.

 

[meredog]

You should have plenty of power talk to your installer/mechanic
i have rode vtx 1800 trikes and there shouldn't be a problem

I need to find a dealer/installer in Michigan to get it looked at. Bought it on my way back from wintering in Tx

 

[meredog]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Baz</strong>
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<div class="message">Have you lowered the final drive ratio as part of the Trike conversation & if so by what % ???</div>

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Is the drive ratio normally changed when converting ? Is there a way to check ? how is it done ?

 

[Baz]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>meredog</strong>
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<div class="message">Is the drive ratio normally changed when converting ? Is there a way to check ? how is it done ?</div>

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</div>Working on the basis the Bike manufacturer has the gearing about right for a bike then it can't be right for a Trike. Remember you have added a great deal of extra weight, rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag etc. I'm working on the basis that a reduction in final drive ratio of about 4 / 6% would be about right for most V twin engines of mid to large displacement but this is based on best educated guess not science at this stage. Not knowing anything about your engines state of tune there is a good probability that you are running far too lean (factory settings to get thru the emission regs ) under load & large throttle positions. A richer mixture will tend to see your engine develop a lot more torque which it needs to haul the increased load due to all the reasons above. For example--- A Ducati we own could not pull 6th gear 2 up @ 110 kph. After richening it up some by tricking the O2 sensor the bike pulls cleanly from 90kph to what ever. Heaps more torque & better fuel mileage.

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I hope you can see where I'm going with this ??<br />
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But to answer your question, I would expect the installer to know exactly what the drive ratio would be. Might be worth the phone call. Cheers Baz <img src="images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" /><br />
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PS I would be most interested in reading other opinions.

 

[Smoken'JOE]

I very seldom get into 5th. Usually above 65 will let it run smooth. If you need more power for passing, I down shift and go.
I talked with RSmith yesterday about this and gas mileage. What it came down to was if the used a different gear ratio, then power would suffer and the bike would shudder all the time.
From their site.
Automotive Differential
Our differential is constructed from standard automotive ring and pinion gear sets. The original application of our differential was a Jeep. We cut down this cast iron housing and make an Independent Suspension differential out of it. The components inside of it are all new, including the 3.55:1 ratio ring and pinion. We make the gear ratio slightly deeper to retain the impressive power of this monster.

 

[meredog]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Smoken'JOE</strong>
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<div class="message">I very seldom get into 5th. Usually above 65 will let it run smooth. If you need more power for passing, I down shift and go. <br />
I talked with RSmith yesterday about this and gas mileage. What it came down to was if the used a different gear ratio, then power would suffer and the bike would shudder all the time.<br />
<b><u>From their site.</u></b><br />
<b><font color="Red"> Automotive Differential<br />
Our differential is constructed from standard automotive ring and pinion gear sets. The original application of our differential was a Jeep. We cut down this cast iron housing and make an Independent Suspension differential out of it. The components inside of it are all new, including the 3.55:1 ratio ring and pinion. We make the gear ratio slightly deeper to retain the impressive power of this monster.</font></b></div>

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</div>hmmmmm Is yours a Champion trike ? I have an inquiry out thru my dealer and they are checking on it for me.

I have a solid axle with automotive style rear end but i do not know the gearing. (When the dealer said independent suspetion they explained : they mean't independent shock on each side------I didn't know the difference at the time<br />
I am expeirencing about the same thing --over 60-70 mph (on the level ) i can use 5th gear

 

[Smoken'JOE]

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<img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>meredog</strong>
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<div class="message">hmmmmm Is yours a Champion trike ? I have an inquiry out thru my dealer and they are checking on it for me. I have a solid axle with automotive style rear end but i do not know the gearing. (When the dealer said independent suspetion they explained : they mean't independent shock on each side------I didn't know the difference at the time<br />
I am expeirencing about the same thing --over 60-70 mph (on the level ) i can use 5th gear</div>

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</div>Nope not a Champion, Roadsmith kit for me. I looked at the Champion site and they don't call out the ratio.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.championsidecars.com" target="_blank">Welcome to Champion Motorcycle Trike kits, Trike conversions, Hard Bags, Sidecars, Trailers, EZ-Steer, Reverse Gear</a>

 

[Baz]

I very seldom get into 5th. Usually above 65 will let it run smooth. If you need more power for passing, I down shift and go.
I talked with RSmith yesterday about this and gas mileage. What it came down to was if the used a different gear ratio, then power would suffer and the bike would shudder all the time.
From their site.
Automotive Differential
Our differential is constructed from standard automotive ring and pinion gear sets. The original application of our differential was a Jeep. We cut down this cast iron housing and make an Independent Suspension differential out of it. The components inside of it are all new, including the 3.55:1 ratio ring and pinion. We make the gear ratio slightly deeper to retain the impressive power of this monster.

Sorry but the gearing has nothing to with the power. That's a function of the engine. The gearing should be set so that the Trike is running within the engines torque band or close to it is the theory. If you cant haul 5th gear then that's proof positive that the final drive ratio is wrong. On my trike for example it runs @ 3600 rpm @ 100 kph. As a bike the rpm @ 100 kph was 3100 I think. It hauls 5th gear from 90 kph easily . It will haul away from a standard M109R bike from a standing start. Why ?? because I lowered the final drive ratio to compensate for the substantial increase in mass that comes from Triking a bike. Fuel consumption is only marginally more than the bike . How come ?? because although the rpm is higher less throttle is required as the engine is less loaded due to the change of final drive ratio. Baz.

PS. If the Trike shudders surely that is indicative of gearing being too high for the load. Exactly what I have been trying to say. I struggle to accept that Road Smith don't understand this .

 

[Smoken'JOE]

Sorry but the gearing has nothing to with the power. That's a function of the engine. The gearing should be set so that the Trike is running within the engines torque band or close to it is the theory. If you cant haul 5th gear then that's proof positive that the final drive ratio is wrong. On my trike for example it runs @ 3600 rpm @ 100 kph. As a bike the rpm @ 100 kph was 3100 I think. It hauls 5th gear from 90 kph easily . It will haul away from a standard M109R bike from a standing start. Why ?? because I lowered the final drive ratio to compensate for the substantial increase in mass that comes from Triking a bike. Fuel consumption is only marginally more than the bike . How come ?? because although the rpm is higher less throttle is required as the engine is less loaded due to the change of final drive ratio. Baz.

PS. If the Trike shudders surely that is indicative of gearing being too high for the load. Exactly what I have been trying to say. I struggle to accept that
Road Smith don't understand this .

What would be a good gear ratio for the VTX 1800?
He said I could put a 3.08 in there but it would shudder through all the gears.
OR, do you think there is a different problem?

 

[John Luciano]

The Gold wing trike 1500 1997 will pull the 500 lb trailer 2 up no problem . RPM above 2,500 is no problem what is the RPM at say 45 MPH. that will tell the story . Compare it with other 1800 owners on here

 

[Smoken'JOE]

The Gold wing trike 1500 1997 will pull the 500 lb trailer 2 up no problem . RPM above 2,500 is no problem what is the RPM at say 45 MPH. that will tell the story . Compare it with other 1800 owners on here

One problem.....don't have a tach. There is a big difference between a GW and VTX. Flat 6 vs "V" twin.

 

[John Luciano]

There is a way to find the gear ratio. Jack up the rear tire so you can rotate it and see the drive shaft. mark the tire and the drive shaft. Turn the tire and count the revs. Help me now I am old , I cant remember if it is one turn of the tire and how many of the drive shaft or one turn of the drive shaft to how many tire., I believe it is the first. so u spin the tire 1 time and the drive shaft goes around 3 it is 3:08( very high gearing good fuel economy but no umph in 5th or off the line.) if it goes around 4 it is 4:11 great tire spinning off the line power and poor MPG. and if it goes 3 an 1/2 it is 3:55 and 3 3/4 it is 3:70 Both really good IMHO.Enough off the line and good power in 5th and gas mileage is not too bad either

 

[meredog]

The Gold wing trike 1500 1997 will pull the 500 lb trailer 2 up no problem . RPM above 2,500 is no problem what is the RPM at say 45 MPH. that will tell the story . Compare it with other 1800 owners on here

OK my VTX 1800 @ 55 mph in 5th gear is running at 2400 rpm------at this speed going down a slight grade is fine on level it is shuttering going up a slight grade it needs 4th gear

 

[Baz]

The Gold wing trike 1500 1997 will pull the 500 lb trailer 2 up no problem . RPM above 2,500 is no problem what is the RPM at say 45 MPH. that will tell the story . Compare it with other 1800 owners on here

Fair comment but you are comparing a 6 cyl engine to big bore long stroke V twins, the power characteristics are rather different & shudder under load is common with this arrangement. Therfore it needs to be engineered and / or tuned out as best you can.

PS I'm trying to get the specs re the factory VTX 1800 final drive ratio so I can compare all ratios to the M109R.

 

[Baz]

OK my VTX 1800 @ 55 mph in 5th gear is running at 2400 rpm------at this speed going down a slight grade is fine on level it is shuttering going up a slight grade it needs 4th gear

Not that i'm saying the M109R is perfect but you will have noticed the big difference in rpm between my Trike & yours at a similar speed give or take a few KPH. :yes:

 

[Smoken'JOE]

From their site.
Automotive Differential
Our differential is constructed from standard automotive ring and pinion gear sets. The original application of our differential was a Jeep. We cut down this cast iron housing and make an Independent Suspension differential out of it. The components inside of it are all new, including the 3.55:1 ratio ring and pinion. We make the gear ratio slightly deeper to retain the impressive power of this monster.

Here ya go. Trikes: HSC1800 : Roadsmith Trikes

 

[Nauga Mok]

From their site.
We make the gear ratio slightly deeper to retain the impressive power of this monster.

From what they're indicating, I'd expect the stock ratio to be about 3.25 or so. You're having the same problem some of us Harley guys are. It's called "lugging" & realy, a part of V Twins. I start getting that "shudder" at 2700 RPM in 5th & sometimes 4th if it's pulling hard. Of course, 2700 is almost dead on 55 mph in 5th. PART of my problem is the cams I'm running. S&S gear drive cams are good above 25 - 2600 RPM, so at 2700, I'm still too far down in the RPMs. At 2900 (65mph), it smooths out. One solution would be to go to HD 205 or 255 cams, but I'd loose the gear drive, which in the earlier twin cams is a GOOD thing. SOooo, I just pay attention to the engine & when it starts to lug, drop a gear & let it turn up a little. After all, 55mph in 4th is 3600 & 60 is 3800, well within the RPM range without getting into the heavier fueled range above 4,000. Don't know about you 'cause you haven't said, but in the lower gears, I don't get the shudder 'till down around 2000. Like I said, I have options with different camming. I have no idea what's available for VTXs -- it might be a solution for you as well.

NM

 

[Smoken'JOE]

Nauga Mok
Don't know about you 'cause you haven't said, but in the lower gears, I don't get the shudder 'till down around 2000. Like I said, I have options with different camming.

Yep, will shudder at the lower gears also. I have found staying in the gear a little longer with higher "R"s will solve the problem. One of the reasons I went to my stock pipes instead of the slip-ons from Cobra. They just were to loud in the city in the lower gears with the higher RPMs.
Guess I'll enjoy what I have until it plain bugs me to much.

 

[John Luciano]

Sorry I was not thinking 2 vers 6 .. the Wing will go down to 25 or 30 MPH in 5th and still pull. I tried it with the Shadow 500 twin 2 wheeler and it is not capable of under 40 in 5th either....

 

[Baz]

Yep, will shudder at the lower gears also. I have found staying in the gear a little longer with higher "R"s will solve the problem. One of the reasons I went to my stock pipes instead of the slip-ons from Cobra. They just were to loud in the city in the lower gears with the higher RPMs.
Guess I'll enjoy what I have until it plain bugs me to much.

I still can't find the final drive ratio for the VTX 1800 but I note max torque is @ 3500 rpm , similar to mine. You'll note I'm doing 3600 rpm @ 100 kph ( 60 mph ) this is where I believe your bike should be running. At that speed my speedo was reading too high by approx 23 kph so you can see I hope, the significance of the f/d ratio change.

PS from memory the M109 R bike f/d ratio is 32/12 =2.66/1. I changed this to 3.08/1 ( I think ) :yes:
PPS. As I write this I'm in the process of fitting a Cobra FI 2000 R EFI tuner to get the fueling better to dial out the leanness which contributes to the shudders on big V twins. Do others fit this unit or Power Commanders ??

 

[REOFL]

Just got my Roadsmith conversion today on my VTX1800F3 from the Trike shop in Daytona. Drove on the highway and was pulling 5100 rpm to get to 70 MPH in 5th gear, engine hit the rev limiter (~5700 rpm) trying to get to 80 MPH. NO owners manual provided by Roadsmith for the 1800 conversion, but they provided a Goldwing manual that says the final drive is 3.55 where as the VTX1800F3 OEM final drive was 3.06. Do I need to change the differential gears? I don't think driving close to redline to maintain 70 mph on the highway can be too good for the engine? Anyone have similar experiences?

 

[Gorilla]

Just got my Roadsmith conversion today on my VTX1800F3 from the Trike shop in Daytona. Drove on the highway and was pulling 5100 rpm to get to 70 MPH in 5th gear, engine hit the rev limiter (~5700 rpm) trying to get to 80 MPH. NO owners manual provided by Roadsmith for the 1800 conversion, but they provided a Goldwing manual that says the final drive is 3.55 where as the VTX1800F3 OEM final drive was 3.06. Do I need to change the differential gears? I don't think driving close to redline to maintain 70 mph on the highway can be too good for the engine? Anyone have similar experiences?

No that does not sound very healthy for the motor. I think I would call the Trike Shop and ask them about it. I would think this would not be their first VTX 1800 conversion and should be aware that a gearing change is required.

 

[Chumbly]

I can't really answer diffinitively for a VTX 1800F with any other conversion than Motor Trike. Mine is a 2002 VTX 1800c with Motor Trike conversion. I noticed after the conversion that I couldn't get into 5th gear either...unless I wanted to severely break the speed limit... ya, about 150 KPH (SORRY, don't remember the conversion). The VTX has ALOT of power, (ei. torque). Pulling a trailer should be a snap... If yours is shaking, shift to a lower gear, you are lugging the engine in too low of an R.P.M. If you can't get it over 70 mph, my guess is your clutch is slipping or you differential is geared to low. Just trying to help... Chumbly-

 

[meredog]

I would guess 95% of our riding is in 4th gear

 

[jim peacock]

I have a 96 1500 with a 06 lehman kit,it has the same gearing as stock two wheeler.
I can get down to 20mph in fith gear two up pulling a trailer with out any shudder and just pull right away with no shudder.
I thought the vtx 1800 had as much horse power as a 1500 and it is lighter.
Maybe it is in the torque curve.

 

[John Luciano]

Same as Jim I rarely shift out of 5th . 20 MPH to 75.. If your gearing is 3:08 it should allow you to go faster than the 3:55. that is 3.55 turns of the drive shaft to one turn of the rear wheel. or 3.08 turns of the drive shaft in your case to one turn of the wheel . So less turns of motor to go more turns of wheel = faster per RPM . Unless you have much smaller rear tire circumference than the stock 2 wheel rear tire was . 3,000 is like 68 MPH on my 1500

 

[meredog]

Shucks---I pull Sequoia tree stumps with mine