2006 VTX 1800 Motortrike rearend R&R - Fix Broken Welds for Ladder Bar Mount -

[Volkemon]

We think and act alike. Good to know there are others that dont tolerate incompetence, and make it right instead of just bitching about it.

Few items on the 'honeydo' list, and then some trike time.

 

[Volkemon]

WOW! Only 6 weeks hiatus from the axle work. Good Grief. Thanks to the Wuhan Flu, No Disney the next two weekends. Silver lining to every cloud.

I am working out the install of the rear axle, and I am concerned that it may not be properly aligned. Triketech did say improperly installed ladder bars WILL damage things.

I have the document from Triketech earlier, and the MT manual for the Goldwing trike conversion.

Both cover final adjustments, but lack the 'basic' alignment to the front wheel. Most is probably basic geometry and measuring, but I dont want to find out the hard way there is more. Never set up a three wheeler.

Any info?

THANKS!

 

[3W-lonerider]

WOW! Only 6 weeks hiatus from the axle work. Good Grief. Thanks to the Wuhan Flu, No Disney the next two weekends. :birthday_smiley:Silver lining to every cloud. :shades:

I am working out the install of the rear axle, and I am concerned that it may not be properly aligned. Triketech did say improperly installed ladder bars WILL damage things.

I have the document from Triketech earlier, and the MT manual for the Goldwing trike conversion.

Both cover final adjustments, but lack the 'basic' alignment to the front wheel. Most is probably basic geometry and measuring, but I dont want to find out the hard way there is more. Never set up a three wheeler.

Any info?

THANKS!

i went through this a while back when my rear was running stagnant.

I measured from the bolt that holds the front heim in to the front of the axle tube and made sure they were the same. If I remember correctly, that measurement was 23 and 1/2 inches.

As far as side to side, I measured from the frame to the inside of the tire.

 

[CrystalPistol]

This came up before and I could not find the pdf of a file I knew I had … but I reorganized some things.

Maybe this will help? This is adjustment, not install. It doesn't specify for GL or VTX or Valkyrie, etc … it looks like it would apply to all SA equipped MT trikes. Even if they use a Valkyrie as example, it's same ladder bar set up, just the axle isn't flipped over.

 

[Volkemon]

i went threw this awhile back when my rear was running stagard.

what i did was measure from the bolt that holds the front heim in to the front of the axle tube and made sure they were the same. If i remember correctly. That measurement was 23 and 1/2 inches.

as far as side to side i measured from the frame to the inside of the tire.

THANK YOU! Good start on things.

This came up before and I could not find the pdf of a file I knew I had … but I reorganized some things.

Maybe this will help? This is adjustment, not install. It doesn't specify for GL or VTX or Valkyrie, etc … it looks like it would apply to all SA equipped MT trikes. Even if they use a Valkyrie as example, it's same ladder bar set up, just the axle isn't flipped over.

Triketech did give me that file, and it covers adjustment. I think a link to it is on post #13 here on this thread.

I found a few papers on setting cars up, learning a tip or two as I read. Being that everything else on this poor trike has been monkeyed around, i am not assuming anything is correct. Found some 'custom' wiring in back, so soldering away on that too.

I have a good level concrete area indoors, so thats good. Suppose first step is to see if the add on frame is square/level to the front axle/bike. Maybe a 'traumatic event' will be revealed that explains the rear axle tear.

Then get the axle squared and centered to the front axle. Should get me a good start.

Going to try a minimal pinion angle, fortunately I have a good test area around me. If any 'pros' out there have a hint, feel free to chime in. PLEASE.

 

[CrystalPistol]

Going to try a minimal pinion angle, fortunately I have a good test area around me. If any 'pros' out there have a hint, feel free to chime in. PLEASE.

I have a magnetic level, about 8" long, has a fixed vial and an adjustable vial in a round window with a degree scale. I think maybe Black & Decker. I know U-joints like a little rotation of needle bearings in use for longevity.

If mine, I'd probably try to nearly match the pinion angle to the angle of a engine part like underneath cooling ribs which likely nearly match the angle of the output shaft and let any slight offset between the output shaft and pinion shaft do the rolling of the needle bearings. You might be able to access the output shaft itself on a VTX? Or maybe I'd just aim the pinion 5 degrees bellow driveshaft center line. With ladder bars, once set, that angle at the rear U-joint is gonna stay the same anyway.

 

[3W-lonerider]

i know the manual states to measure from the tire to the fender, i did not mention this because the very first time i done that. i made it identical on both sides from the tire to the fender. come to find out that the installer did not have the body on straight, it was shifted to one side more than the other. once i set it straight using my measurement from the frame to the tire then i was able to unbolt the body. shift it over to where it belonged then bolt it back down. good luck buddy. i know you'll get this thing straightened out then you'll have a smile on your face so big you'll do the toyota jump.

 

[Volkemon]

I have a magnetic level, about 8" long, has a fixed vial and an adjustable vial in a round window with a degree scale. I think maybe Black & Decker. I know U-joints like a little rotation of needle bearings in use for longevity.

If mine, I'd probably try to nearly match the pinion angle to the angle of a engine part like underneath cooling ribs which likely nearly match the angle of the output shaft and let any slight offset between the output shaft and pinion shaft do the rolling of the needle bearings. You might be able to access the output shaft itself on a VTX? Or maybe I'd just aim the pinion 5 degrees bellow driveshaft center line. With ladder bars, once set, that angle at the rear U-joint is gonna stay the same anyway.

Agreed, except rear u-joint angle will change with suspension travel. From what I am finding, one wants the angle to be minimal, but as you said the caps want to rotate the bearings around. Lucky for me the pinion angle is easily changed, so if problems crop up adjustments will follow.

i know the manual states to measure from the tire to the fender, i did not mention this because the very first time i done that. i made it identical on both sides from the tire to the fender. come to find out that the installer did not have the body on straight, it was shifted to one side more than the other. once i set it straight using my measurement from the frame to the tire then i was able to unbolt the body. shift it over to where it belonged then bolt it back down. good luck buddy. i know you'll get this thing straightened out then you'll have a smile on your face so big you'll do the toyota jump.

YES! I found that the body was off center to the frame by 5/8" when I did the exhaust... :ahhh: lucky it was just a 4-hole fix. There are some strange offsets with the v-twin in the frame... and the passenger footpegs are far from 'equally off from the center' by a few inches. Little tough to determine what 'center' is, I am HOPING the rear fender is centered.

Looking forward to that Toyota Jump... :birgitsgiggle:

but yesterday's task took precedence: I now have a decontamination tent in my driveway, i will not expose my wife/house to anything I can avoid. Hot shower area, laundry sink, water heater, plastic spray down tables, bleach mix in bottles... few spray and wipe disinfectants... and always thinking of how to improve my position. No second chances, I must be hyper vigilant. For the near future, I am the only outside traffic to go on and off property. PERIOD.

Hope ALL Y'all stay safe and far from viruses. This is gonna be a bumpy ride soon.

 

[CrystalPistol]

Agreed, except rear u-joint angle will change with suspension travel.

Rear U-joint angle between drive shaft and companion flange or pinion gear stem should not change with ladder bars, only the front U-joint angle between drive shaft and transmission out put shaft will change as the drive shaft will follow the same arc as the ladder bars, just like with a swing arm. The front U-joint "cross" is between the front most ladder bar to frame mounts.

"Rear fender center"? Level concrete floor, tape, plumb bobs. Draw it all out on the floor. Like a trailer, a pair of lines. One line across rear axle center line, at 1/2 way between, a 90 degree line to front tire contact. About as good as it will get. 3 squared + 4 squared = 25 square root = 5 hypotenuse



"Decontamination tent" in the driveway huh. Good deal.

Take Care!

 

[Volkemon]

Rear U-joint angle between drive shaft and companion flange or pinion gear stem should not change with ladder bars, only the front U-joint angle between drive shaft and transmission out put shaft will change as the drive shaft will follow the same arc as the ladder bars, just like with a swing arm. The front U-joint "cross" is between the front most ladder bar to frame mounts.

"Rear fender center"? Level concrete floor, tape, plumb bobs. Draw it all out on the floor. Like a trailer, a pair of lines. One line across rear axle center line, at 1/2 way between, a 90 degree line to front tire contact. About as good as it will get. 3 squared + 4 squared = 25 square root = 5 hypotenuse



"Decontamination tent" in the driveway huh. Good deal.

Take Care!

Now thats some REALLY good basics there. I was getting too complicated...again...overthinking. THANK YOU!

and yes, a decon tent. I am a potential carrier, but for now also the only link to the outside world.So I must clean,clean clean.

Things are gonna blow up soon. I even have a red line painted on the lawn now for a reminder. Wife is home for the next few weeks. Lucky for us we have a pretty nice home and grounds. Must REALLY suck to be trapped in NYC in a 4th floor apartment... :xzqxz: Or like some other friends, full timing in a RV and parks are closing... I have a cuz in assisted living, he is on the end of WEEK #3(!) of room confinement. Gotta get him more candy and shakes... drop them at the main door and they get delivered to him. NO entry anymore by unauthorized personnel. Last week they still allowed visitors, no more.





Again, best wishes to ALL here. Be super careful, wash hands often. PEACE!

 

[CrystalPistol]

Oh, I don't blame you a bit. Nice set up there. About things blowing up soon, there's some good news too. There's some good people working on this, they've learned a lot too. Was just yesterday first known case in Roanoke, was one in Harrisonburg a week ago but I expect maybe two or three up there now? I'm in between..

On my Norton & Triumphs and a Kawasaki Z1 I once had, chain drive, rear tires wore out often (I've killed new rears in just 3-4,000 miles), or they needed a new chain, or I swapped sprockets. How we aligned rear wheel at re-install time, two straight 2x4s layed on floor at rear tire sidewalls, they would be close to sides of slightly narrower front tire when straight if aligned right. Soon you did it often enough, you just "sighted" the line but some times I use two jack stands and thin twine. Once you learned that a 4.00x18 was a hair bigger than a 3.25x19, and knew the expected gap on each side, you just used one. With my Tridents, both ends had a Dunlop TT100 4.10-19, but the rear wheel was wider so was still a hair gap at the front.

No wheel or tire in center of trike rear, so why I mentioned the lines on a floor.

In 2011, I lowered my '07 F150 a couple inches front & back, threw camber and caster way off, toe too as then suddenly front tires were leaning in at top, pointed away from each other too. I used squares, levels, tape on my carport floor, lines, and a Stanley tape measure and did my own alignment. Bought a 0-350 ft/lb torque wrench to retighten stuff, used two pieces of vinyl tile to let front tires slide, used a come a long to pull lower control arms in to correct camber after enlarging frame slots as I did not want to used those D shaped camber kit bolts, It drives great, tires wear well too. A buddy put it on his "BEAR" and said it was good. I thought I knew where caster was, he confirmed I was very close. I made a rigid jig of plywood with plastic tipped rim blocks to index the wheel lip, legs 30" apart, I can adjust it to fit one side, mark the blue tape on floor, move it to the other side and repeat, then back car or truck up off marks and measure with precision, toe at 30" … use trig to figure it in degrees if desired. Any error in the jig is repeated just backwards on other side so self cancelling.

 

[Volkemon]

Impressive! I got all the parts (seals, etc) yesterday to do the rear axle when we go into lockdown. :clapping: Look forward to setting things up.

 

[Volkemon]

Well... lockdown never happened for me, 'Essential personnel' they say. BUT... allergies were acting up something fierce, and they want me to have a Dr note saying I am clean.

First Dr appt avail WED... FINALLY ITS TRIKE TIIIIIIIIIME!

Well, I guess i can pinpoint the problem as poor welding at Motor Trike in 2006. Got the axle up on the bench, under bright lights.

As some may remember, I was a little pissed that Motor Trike missed the weld at the top of the left side strap. Even with HD pics. Hard to tell if it was a weld-over-a-crack, or a weak weld failing under a stronger one? I cut it apart, and the pieces looked like it was poor penetration, but hard to tell with the 'scab weld' on top. You could still see the square edge of the strap where it SHOULD have been fused to the other plate...

Well..... found the bottom cracked also, and the culprit is VERY clear. Now, as you see, the crack is pretty damn obvious.

OK, this wasnt hard to find on the bench... just never had it upside down under lights.

*******************************************************************************************************

And it wasn't far from where Motortrike's crack team did the inspection and repairs... Like 4 inches or so.. nice attention to detail guys.

*****************************************************************************************************

Cutting off the strap end to get a good weld area, look at the LACK of penetration. Those two little divots in the base metal are the ONLY spots the weld had penetrated. Popped off with a small screwdriver, easily, after cutting the strap. You can see the two bumps on the piece i am holding. ALL the other surface area was just pigeon shit on top.

Well, thats a 'smoking gun' to me. This whole calamity was caused by piss poor welding in 2006. On top of that, when i send it back the current group of monkeys doesnt fix it right. This was SUPPOSED to be cleaned, inspected, and new pieces welded on while in a jig. Instead, they replaced the minimum necessary to make it work, and never inspected the rest of the assembly for the PROBLEMS IT WAS SENT THERE FOR. Idiots.

No argument with the welding, look like some great beads. But as far as getting the job DONE that I hired Motor Trike for, they failed miserably. LOSERS!

My saving grace was that I can do this stuff, and know what to look for. When I have some jackasses send me dangerous work, I have the ability to see it and correct it. I spec'd NO PAINT so I could inspect it... that crack would have been filled with paint. :xzqxz: Dealing with Richard on the phone always left me a little ...wanting. 30 second answers took 3 minutes. I thought it prudent to inspect the work 'JUST IN CASE' the work didnt meet the expectations... gut feeling. SO glad I went with it, may have saved my life!

Imagine if i was 'Joe Average Customer'. Sending my rear to the trike shop to get it fixed. Having faith that the factory, the company that built it, will fix it right. A reasonable assumption.

I get my newly repaired axle back, painted and shiny. Reassemble it, and go for a ride. Wonder how long before the left side would have broken JUST LIKE THE RIGHT DID, hopefully with up not losing our lives....but we were VERY lucky last time.

Richard, I hope you read this and hang your head. SHAME on you and your company. I shipped this axle to you in good faith, you guys shipped back a dangerous part. I consider you ALL incompetent, and i am going to be spreading the word about your ineptness. You are VERY fortunate we are discussing this in a forum, and you are not getting this info along with a lawsuit for your actions. YOU SHIPPED BACK A DANGEROUS ITEM. SHAME.

Maybe its my fault for sending beer and crown.. never thought they would drink it THEN do the work..

Well... now to calm down and get to welding. I have three days off! :clapping:

 

[Jack Klarich]

WOW, it is a damn good thing you did an inspection on the welds

Someone should IMO lose their job over that. It is a HUGE liability

Good luck on your wrenching

 

[Volkemon]

Ate up several grinding wheels, 3" discs and dremel stones, but root ground most of the welds. Hit the ones that were 'ungrindable' with the spot sandblaster to clean. Found several areas with poor penetration. Glad I took the extra effort to repair ALL the old welds.

Welded things up like it was MY a** on the line. Very happy with the result. Used .035 wire and ~190A. Sequenced the welds to avoid warping, and did multiple passes to ensure good penetration. Might be a tad overwelded, but I am OK with that.

I painted the axle Jacobsen orange, to match the 'trikes' at work. :laugh: No, its not Harley orange. Not Gator orange either.



But chosen mostly because we had a case of touch-up paint sitting around... and the bright glossy color will make future inspections easier. :clapping:

HOPEFULLY have the innards done this weekend, and finally roll. Four months later. :blush: What a long strange trip its been.

Looking forward to riding it again, and so is Mrs V! Last time she was off-property was to vote on Mar 17. :xzqxz:

 

[trike tech]

Well... lockdown never happened for me, 'Essential personnel' they say. BUT... allergies were acting up something fierce, and they want me to have a Dr note saying I am clean.

First Dr appt avail WED... FINALLY ITS TRIKE TIIIIIIIIIME!

Well, I guess i can pinpoint the problem as poor welding at Motor Trike in 2006. Got the axle up on the bench, under bright lights.

As some may remember, I was a little pissed that Motor Trike missed the weld at the top of the left side strap. Even with HD pics. Hard to tell if it was a weld-over-a-crack, or a weak weld failing under a stronger one? I cut it apart, and the pieces looked like it was poor penetration, but hard to tell with the 'scab weld' on top. You could still see the square edge of the strap where it SHOULD have been fused to the other plate...

Well..... found the bottom cracked also, and the culprit is VERY clear. Now, as you see, the crack is pretty damn obvious.

OK, this wasnt hard to find on the bench... just never had it upside down under lights.

*******************************************************************************************************

And it wasn't far from where Motortrike's crack team did the inspection and repairs... Like 4 inches or so.. nice attention to detail guys.

*****************************************************************************************************

Cutting off the strap end to get a good weld area, look at the LACK of penetration. Those two little divots in the base metal are the ONLY spots the weld had penetrated. Popped off with a small screwdriver, easily, after cutting the strap. You can see the two bumps on the piece i am holding. ALL the other surface area was just pigeon shit on top.

Well, thats a 'smoking gun' to me. This whole calamity was caused by piss poor welding in 2006. On top of that, when i send it back the current group of monkeys doesnt fix it right. This was SUPPOSED to be cleaned, inspected, and new pieces welded on while in a jig. Instead, they replaced the minimum necessary to make it work, and never inspected the rest of the assembly for the PROBLEMS IT WAS SENT THERE FOR. Idiots.

No argument with the welding, look like some great beads. But as far as getting the job DONE that I hired Motor Trike for, they failed miserably. LOSERS!

My saving grace was that I can do this stuff, and know what to look for. When I have some jackasses send me dangerous work, I have the ability to see it and correct it. I spec'd NO PAINT so I could inspect it... that crack would have been filled with paint. :xzqxz: Dealing with Richard on the phone always left me a little ...wanting. 30 second answers took 3 minutes. I thought it prudent to inspect the work 'JUST IN CASE' the work didnt meet the expectations... gut feeling. SO glad I went with it, may have saved my life!

Imagine if i was 'Joe Average Customer'. Sending my rear to the trike shop to get it fixed. Having faith that the factory, the company that built it, will fix it right. A reasonable assumption.

I get my newly repaired axle back, painted and shiny. Reassemble it, and go for a ride. Wonder how long before the left side would have broken JUST LIKE THE RIGHT DID, hopefully with up not losing our lives....but we were VERY lucky last time.

Richard, I hope you read this and hang your head. SHAME on you and your company. I shipped this axle to you in good faith, you guys shipped back a dangerous part. I consider you ALL incompetent, and i am going to be spreading the word about your ineptness. You are VERY fortunate we are discussing this in a forum, and you are not getting this info along with a lawsuit for your actions. YOU SHIPPED BACK A DANGEROUS ITEM. SHAME.

Maybe its my fault for sending beer and crown.. never thought they would drink it THEN do the work..

Well... now to calm down and get to welding. I have three days off! :clapping:

I've been "absent" from the forum for a while (sorry for all the "ghosting" on here) so am just now seeing all of this information. First of all I apologize for the absolute lack of work done & that what I was told and in turn relayed to you was not accurate at all. I would think that even without magnifying these issues should have been easily visible by the naked eye & as such should have been caught either by the welder doing the repair or the weld shop supervisor that I was told inspected prior to crating to ship back.

Also, Jack is correct in the fact that this SHOULD be addressed & said employee(s) dealt with by mgmt.

I am the only employee who is on TT in our facility; mgmt and ownership does not get on here to "see what others are saying". While putting the information & lack of work done in our facility on here isn't at all a negative; but it will never go beyond this site & whoever happens to see it here and as a result no action will be taken by mgmt at Motor Trike without direct communication to our company.

I do wish you had reached out to us either via email or letter with the issues you had found so that we could have at least attempted to get this resolved for you in some fashion along with posting on here to make others aware. Because I have not been on here in some time I had no idea of the issues you found and as a company we certainly had no knowledge without being reached out to directly.



With all of that being said, "off the record" I would like to request that you put together a "list" of the problems you found with the rear end once you got back from our facility along with photographs showing the issues AND listing the actions you had to take to correct these items as a direct result and mail that information to Motor Trike directly to the below C/O information. This will provide management with the problems found, photographs showing these issues, as well as what you had to do as a customer to finish "fixing" what our weld shop did not so that proper actions can be taken within our facility to ensure this does not happen to anyone else moving forward.

Motor Trike, Inc.

Attn - Jeff and Management

PO Box 611

Troup, TX 75789



I do realize an email would be "simpler" in many ways, however a letter coming directly from you as a customer would carry a bit more "weight" in my opinion (call me old fashioned?) and do believe that Jeff would feel the same way.

Once again I do apologize for all of the problems you found post "repair" on your rear end.

 

[Volkemon]

Hello Richard!

Well, how the world has changed since we were last here. Makes some things seem unimportant now.

I surely understand your concern about the public nature of the forum, but its not 'news' I post and picture most everything.

If your company is truly concerned about the safety of its customers, I would think this thread should have enough information. I am not about to waste any more time on it. About one more sentence worth.

FINALLY getting some time to get back on the poor trike... will post progress pics back in the home thread.