New Brake Shoes Locking Up 2004 Lehman Goldwing

[Ray & Paula]

Good solid plan, I am following. Best of luck:clapping:

Thanks Jack!! ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Good solid plan, I am following. Best of luck:clapping:

I have another question..... Upon removing my axles, I first checked to see what the torque was on bolts. They were all around 60 ft. lbs. which seems pretty low to me.... What would you suggest to torque them at? Still waiting for a call from the welder.... Thanks. Ray

 

[Jack Klarich]

I have another question..... Upon removing my axles, I first checked to see what the torque was on bolts. They were all around 60 ft. lbs. which seems pretty low to me.... What would you suggest to torque them at? Still waiting for a call from the welder.... Thanks. Ray

45-50 ft lbs using a cross pattern

 

[Ray & Paula]

45-50 ft lbs using a cross pattern

Thank You Jack.... I never would have thought that low of a torque. Always learning..... Thanks, appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Just wanted to chime in..... I'm still waiting for my backing plates to get done from my local welder. Was suppose to be done no later than this past Wednesday. I called him yesterday and he stated that he's been dealing with a few fires as a volunteer fireman...... Promised to have them done first part of next week. He has about four people working for him but, I don't want to press it. If not done by this Wednesday, I'll be going elsewhere. Patience is growing thin..... :taz:.....

 

[Ray & Paula]

Sorry about not reporting back quicker..... I had to go out of town but, will be back Saturday. I did pick up get my backing plates before I headed out, they look great. They also did an awesome job straightening them out as well on their press. I'll be re-assembling once I get back. I'll be reporting back..... ThumbUp

 

[CrystalPistol]

I think I mentioned before ... Axle lube contaminating shoes or inner drum surfaces will cause grabbing if it leaks into the drum area. One might think it'd be slicker, but it's not.

About the torque on nuts securing backing plates to the axle ... I'd think 40-50 ft lbs would be a plenty. The bolts aren't wheel bolts.

 

[Ray & Paula]

Brakes are done!! Had to be the backer plates.... one or both of two things caused the issue with locking up. Either the gouged surface of the nubs or the plates being slightly bent, I would say both. The wierd thing is, I didn't have any problems with the brakes until I decided to replace them while replacing the tires. I took a successful 20 mile test run and readjusted and took another one. All braking was in a nice straight line as it should be. I'll be taking about a 300 mile run in about a week and will check once again. Didn't have to readjust the parking brake at all. I have about an 1/8" play between the leading shoe and the PB bracket at the anti-rattle spring. I torqued the axle bolts at 50 ft lbs as you guys suggested using a cross pattern.

In regards to the new wheel cylinders, that was easy-peasy bleeding due to the speed bleeders I installed. I replaced all of my bleeders including the one for the clutch. Well worth every penny! Nice to have my bike back on the road!! I want to thank you guys for hanging in their with me helping me along!! It meant more than I can say knowing I could turn here for your help! I sincerely appreciate it! Thank You, Big Time!! :yahoo:ThumbUp





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[Ray & Paula]

I think I mentioned before ... Axle lube contaminating shoes or inner drum surfaces will cause grabbing if it leaks into the drum area. One might think it'd be slicker, but it's not.

About the torque on nuts securing backing plates to the axle ... I'd think 40-50 ft lbs would be a plenty. The bolts aren't wheel bolts.

Thank you!!ThumbUp

 

[Jack Klarich]

Brakes are done!! Had to be the backer plates.... one or both of two things caused the issue with locking up. Either the gouged surface of the nubs or the plates being slightly bent, I would say both. The wierd thing is, I didn't have any problems with the brakes until I decided to replace them while replacing the tires. I took a successful 20 mile test run and readjusted and took another one. All braking was in a nice straight line as it should be. I'll be taking about a 300 mile run in about a week and will check once again. Didn't have to readjust the parking brake at all. I have about an 1/8" play between the leading shoe and the PB bracket at the anti-rattle spring. I torqued the axle bolts at 50 ft lbs as you guys suggested using a cross pattern.

In regards to the new wheel cylinders, that was easy-peasy bleeding due to the speed bleeders I installed. I replaced all of my bleeders including the one for the clutch. Well worth every penny! Nice to have my bike back on the road!! I want to thank you guys for hanging in their with me helping me along!! It meant more than I can say knowing I could turn here for your help! I sincerely appreciate it! Thank You, Big Time!! :yahoo:ThumbUp



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Good on you, I like a happy ending:clapping:

 

[Ray & Paula]

Good on you, I like a happy ending:clapping:

Absolutely! Ride Safe.... Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Bad News....... Just got back from a 1200 mile trip this past weekend. Brakes are now pulling to the left again with the left wheel locking up as before. "To be clear, it releases as soon as I release the brake/s." I haven't done much riding since I worked on them until I took this trip. With most of these miles being expressway, I didn't notice anything until the trip back home. The brakes gradually began pulling to the left no matter if I was using both, the hand brake and brake pedal together or one or the other. With that being said, using the foot pedal alone seemed to cause it to lock more so than the front hand brake. "To my understanding, Lehman kept the oem linked front to rear brakes to the left side only." Travel on both hand/foot brakes are where they should be.

Today, I checked the wheels for free rotation in which both spun easily without any drag. It took approx. a dozen star adjuster clicks to receive one and a half revolutions with drag. I then took it for a 15 mile stop/go test run which seemed to be much better at first..... Then it quickly went back to pulling to the left with the left wheel locking up until released.

All I can think of now is the possibility of being the master cylinder?? With all that's been done at this point.... it sure is disappointing to say the least. So.... it's back to the drawing board. My next move at this point is to remove the wheels, back off the shoes and remove the drums for further inspection. I don't know if there is any way to tell if it's one of the MC's without spending the bucks to do so? On the Honda Goldwing there's a MC, Secondary MC and a Proportional Control Valve (photo below of oem) Once again guys, if you have any other suggestions and/or thoughts I would sincerely appreciate it. Thanks. Clueless Ray

 

[Marc H]

Just for fun before you start looking at other parts recheck the adjustment.If its loose again its possible you may have that adjuster in backwards.If so you wouldn't be the first to do it.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Ray, I don't think the rear master is the problem, both rears would probably lock up, from the diagram it appears maybe your brakes are a linked design? i dunno much about the hydraulic set up your trike uses, I dunno if you could re plumb the rear brakes to isolate them totally from the front and the anti dive

 

[Ray & Paula]

Just for fun before you start looking at other parts recheck the adjustment.If its loose again its possible you may have that adjuster in backwards.If so you wouldn't be the first to do it.

Thanks for the help. They're in correct simply due to the way the parking brake cable is routed. Plus, I always take pic's of before and after just in case as shown below. Thanks again, appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp



OEM Left



New Left



OEM Right

New Right

 

[Ray & Paula]

Ray, I don't think the rear master is the problem, both rears would probably lock up, from the diagram it appears maybe your brakes are a linked design? i dunno much about the hydraulic set up your trike uses, I dunno if you could re plumb the rear brakes to isolate them totally from the front and the anti dive

Thanks jack, Yes they are linked.... I created a post back in June of 2015 asking about the bleeding procedure for my GL1800 (link below). Jim Murphy (RIP) replied stating that Lehman kept the same linked brake system as the oem. As you know, he was quite familiar with Lehman due to building them back then. I replaced everything back then as I did this year but, without any issues.

This has really got me puzzled..... Your statement makes sense about not being the MC. Not being a mechanic, I don't know if I could isolate the brakes from the front.... That's a good question. I know that Lehman went to disc brakes on the rear on the Monarc II but, mine is the original Monarch. I don't know of anyone that may have made a conversion to disc.

Only other thing I thought about trying is backing off the left side some with less drag than the right side. I'm going take another look at the brake lines again as well. Thanks again, appreciate all your help. Ray ThumbUp

See post 5 for Jim's response;

https://www.triketalk.com/forum/thr...2004-Lehman-GL1800-Owners?p=296969#post296969

 

[Jack Klarich]

I dunno if this will work on a Honda trike kit, Take every brake line and component off the bike except for the calipers and master cylinders.

Connect a brake line from the rear master to the rear wheel ( you could run 1 line with a t union so you could split the line , 1 to each wheel cylinder.

Connect a brake line from the front master to the right front caliper, and send a jumper over to the left front caliper.

This would eliminate the linking and ant dive, I dunno how effective it would be, or how good the braking would be, the rear brakes could benefit from an adjustable residual check valve also

In theory this would give you 2 separate independent braking systems

 

[Ray & Paula]

I dunno if this will work on a Honda trike kit, Take every brake line and component off the bike except for the calipers and master cylinders.

Connect a brake line from the rear master to the rear wheel cylinders ( you could run 1 line with a t union so you could split the line , 1 to each wheel cylinder

Connect a brake line from the front master to the right front caliper, and send a jumper over to the left front caliper.

This would eliminate the linking and ant dive, I dunno how effective it would be, or how good the braking would be, the rear brakes could benefit from an adjustable residual check valve also

In theory this would give you 2 separate independent braking systems

Thanks Jack, Sounds like a good solid plan..... This would be quite intensive for me therefore, I would move in this direction as a last resort. Don't get me wrong, I won't dismiss it as a resolution. At this point, I would like to find out how these Lehman GL1800 trikes were converted to disc brakes on the rears. The biggest problem I have is finding someone that's familiar with this install.

I'll do some more inspecting today but, I'm sure that I have everything installed properly along with the backer plates being greased. I've never come across anything that is so puzzeling. Please keep brain storming..... I sincerely appreciate all your help along with the other's here as well!! I'll report back.... Thanks!! Ray ThumbUp

 

[Sidecarbill]

So looking at the first post it seems this started when you changed the shoes. So going back to where this started I think I'd try a different brand of brake shoes. Just because why not you've changed everything else.

 

[Ray & Paula]

So looking at the first post it seems this started when you changed the shoes. So going back to where this started I think I'd try a different brand of brake shoes. Just because why not you've changed everything else.

Thanks for pointing that out..... I thought I mentioned it but, I see that I didn't. I did install another new set of shoes made by Duralast (Auto Zone) The first new set was NAPA. I thought about replacing the new NAPA wheel cylinders as well but, instead of spendng another $30.00 a piece I took them apart for inspection. Both, left and right WC's looked great. ThumbUp

 

[Jack Klarich]

Thanks for pointing that out..... I thought I mentioned it but, I see that I didn't. I did install another new set of shoes made by Duralast (Auto Zone) The first new set was NAPA. I thought about replacing the new NAPA wheel cylinders as well but, instead of spendng another $30.00 a piece I took them apart for inspection. Both, left and right WC's looked great. ThumbUp

If you decide to change the rear shoes( I would surely try this) get riveted shoes

WE had bad luck with most bonded shoes

 

[Ray & Paula]

If you decide to change the rear shoes( I would surely try this) get riveted shoes

WE had bad luck with most bonded shoes

Thanks Jack, I did look at the Raybestos 474PG but, they wern't readily available. Those are the only ones I came across that are rivited. If I order them, it will be my third new pair of shoes for this job...... Thanks again. Ray (Headbang) [FONT=&quot]bestos 474PG[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Raybestos 474PG[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Sidecarbill]

Not much I can think of at this point. U could check 2 make sure both wheel cylinders are the same bore diameter. Wheel cylinders can be physically the same size with different bores. Common on old VW,s I once had a car come in,customer did own brakes and one side wouldn't work. He had jammed a piece of wood in the brake line to keep it from leaking. He forgot about it and put it together. The thing that bothers me about this is I didn't see where you had this problem before you put the brakes on. That says it's something you inadvertently created.:Shrug:

 

[Ray & Paula]

Not much I can think of at this point. U could check 2 make sure both wheel cylinders are the same bore diameter. Wheel cylinders can be physically the same size with different bores. Common on old VW,s I once had a car come in,customer did own brakes and one side wouldn't work. He had jammed a piece of wood in the brake line to keep it from leaking. He forgot about it and put it together. The thing that bothers me about this is I didn't see where you had this problem before you put the brakes on. That says it's something you inadvertently created.:Shrug:

Thanks.... I didn't have any problems before I replaced everything. The sole reason I did so was because I was replacing my rear tires and thought I would simply change the shoes out..... I guess I thought wrong. I replaced everything I did here back in 2015 and never had an issue. I totally went through installation / removal three times on this job. Everything is installed as it should be. It's been double checked each and every time. Such a simple job that's been nothing but a major P.I.A. I even installed speed bleeders to make sure I wouldn't introduce air into the system. In regards to the new wheel cylinders, they appeared to be fine and never thought about measuring them.... Thanks again, appreciate your thoughts and help. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Sidecarbill]

Not knowing your ability to repair things I just throw this out there. I'm not trying to aggravate you. But we're looking at a needle in a haystack at this point. So not being there I try to think of things that could create a problem like this.:Shrug:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Not knowing your ability to repair things I just throw this out there. I'm not trying to aggravate you. But we're looking at a needle in a haystack at this point. So not being there I try to think of things that could create a problem like this.:Shrug:

Very good point

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks.... I didn't have any problems before I replaced everything. The sole reason I did so was because I was replacing my rear tires and thought I would simply change the shoes out..... I guess I thought wrong. I replaced everything I did here back in 2015 and never had an issue. I totally went through installation / removal three times on this job. Everything is installed as it should be. It's been double checked each and every time. Such a simple job that's been nothing but a major P.I.A. I even installed speed bleeders to make sure I wouldn't introduce air into the system. In regards to the new wheel cylinders, they appeared to be fine and never thought about measuring them.... Thanks again, appreciate your thoughts and help. Ray ThumbUp

The rubber seals inside the cylinders are usually marked what diameter they are, most of the 9 inch Bendix type brakes used either 3/4 or 7/8 size

 

[Ray & Paula]

Not knowing your ability to repair things I just throw this out there. I'm not trying to aggravate you. But we're looking at a needle in a haystack at this point. So not being there I try to think of things that could create a problem like this.:Shrug:

Hi Bill.... Never thought you were trying to aggravate me.... In fact, quite the opposite. I re-read my answer to you and don't see why you would have thought that. I appreciate and respect everyone's thoughts, suggestions and help here in this forum. Thanks. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Very good point

- - - Updated - - -

The rubber seals inside the cylinders are usually marked what diameter they are, most of the 9 inch Bendix type brakes used either 3/4 or 7/8 size

Thanks Jack.... ThumbUp

 

[Jack Klarich]

Thanks Jack.... ThumbUp

Ray, have you ever had excess pressure in the LR brake after your test rides?

By cracking the bleeder loose has there been a good stream of fluid out?

This could be a defective wheel cylinder and or a master cylinder problem

Do you have a proportioning valve and or a residual valve on the rear brakes?

Many trikes use a rear residual check valve

 

[Ray & Paula]

Ray, have you ever had excess pressure in the LR brake after your test rides?

As a reminder, I adjusted both left & right sides one and a half revolutions each with gave me the same amount of drag. I just jacked up the trike above my car ramps to check rotation. The left side that's been locking up is rotating one full turn and a half which was my initial adjustment. Now the right side, I can hardly turn it. It's as if the brake is on but, not quite all the way. It's only affected by the foot brake and is not linked to the hand brake.

By cracking the bleeder loose has there been a good stream of fluid out?

When I bled them with the speed bleeder's it seemed to be the same flow. In fact, it seemed to be the same throughout the entire system front and back. Of course, with the right side be tight and under pressure, the fluid would probably shoot out.

This could be a defective wheel cylinder and or a master cylinder problem

What's your thoughts now with the current situation?

Do you have a proportioning valve and or a residual valve on the rear brakes?

Yes, although I can't visually see it. I would think that Lehman left the proportioning valve in place due to the linked system. It's located behind the left radiator. Hopefully, this isn't the problem due to having to removing the radiator and brake fluid. It doesn't appear to be too bad of a job but, brake fluid procedures in the service manual are for both front and rear calipers for the oem two wheeler.



Many trikes use a rear residual check valve

Due to being oblivious.....LOL, I couldn't tell you if there is one or not. There isn't one in the Honda oem service manual. Both, the rear master cylinder which is located behind the right side cover and the secondary master cylinder located at the front wheel are easily accessible.