New Brake Shoes Locking Up 2004 Lehman Goldwing

[Jack Klarich]

Got delayed again.... Plus, I've been doing some more digging into the possibility of this issue being the Secondary Master Cylinder (SMC). That, along with the Residual Check Valve & Proportional Control Valve (PCV). I'd like to at least change the check valve due to having to re-bleed everything again but first, I have to figure out how to get at it with both hands. It is made by a company named Wilwood which is stamped on the valve. One thread here in the forum gave the part number 260-3501 along with Lehmans GC6003 (link below). While taking some pic's, I went ahead and took some of my hydraulic lines and labeled them (below). There are areas of the lines that I can't physically see therefore, it could be labeled inaccurately but, I.M.O. it's correct.

Residual Check Valve: https://www.triketalk.com/forum/threads/8732-Residual-brake-valve-on-Lehman-Monarch-1

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The residual check valve if bad should lock both rear brakes, however working with the proportioning valve could cause such a problem, also the brakes being linked diagonally ( i am not familiar with the Honda design) could also be a problem?

 

[Ray & Paula]

The residual check valve if bad should lock both rear brakes, however working with the proportioning valve could cause such a problem, also the brakes being linked diagonally ( i am not familiar with the Honda design) could also be a problem?

Thank You Jack.... I was getting great fluid flow with my prior tests making me believe that it's "not" the check valve. I thought maybe it woukld be a simple fix once I can get both hands on it..... LOL. If the rear MC doesn't do the trick, my biggest lean will be toward the Secondary MC (SMC) especially after reading a few post's on other forums (links below). I'm considering removing it for inspection before re-bleeding this round. There's so many things that it could be linked to.....:gah: I'm not going to give up on this until it's figured out. I sincerely appreciate all your help and time throughout this ordeal. Thanks again Jack! Ray ThumbUp

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index...ar-brake-locking-up-rear-center-piston-fixed/

https://www.cbrxx.com/threads/secondary-master-cylinder-is-stuck.34538/

 

[Ray & Paula]

Still testing..... I installed the new rear brake MC last week along with having the drums turned. Upon installation, I bench bled the MC at the banjo bolt exit opening on the bike. I then gently squeezed the hose between the MC and reservoir to remove any trapped air in which there was. I wanted to perform shoe adjustment a little at a time therefore, I followed up by adjusting them with a little drag giving the wheels two and a half revolutions.

I proceeded by re-bleeding the interlinked rear brake system. Took about a ten mile easy stop & go ride for some burnishing. Got back and re-adjusted the shoes. Both wheels had free play without drag as expected. This time, I gave them both one and quarter revolutions of drag. Took another test run for about ten miles once again. Seemed to be much better. At this point, we took it out for a couple of days of an easy 500 mile fall ride with a third being E-way.

Current condition: Upon applying the brakes front & rear together, front "or" rear only, the brakes are grabbing with "close" lockup and pulling to the right. Close, meaning that they're touchy enough to lockup with a little more pressure, with the rears being more so. With that being said, after about an hour of not riding, braking holds a straight line but, only with a couple of stops. I'm going to check shoe adjustment once again which may be the issue.

If not corrected, I'm going to re-bleed the entire system, front & rear brakes. I don't feel that there's any air in the system but, I'll go through it again. Both reservoirs, front and rear MC's have enough room for fluid expansion. If this doesn't do it, I'll be tempted to replace the secondary MC.... Probably won't be able to re-test until sometime over the weekend due to all the rain here. If you have any other thoughts, by all means "Please" throw them at me. As always, I would appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Got the brakes adjusted but..... I ran into another problem other than brakes. When it rains, it pours! As I was cleaning up the bike from our ride, I found my left exhaust pipe being loose. Pulled the wheel off for further inspection and found Lehman's exhaust pipe rusted off as shown in the pic's below. Thank goodness it rusted off about 3/4" within the Honda oem exhaust pipe.

Created the following thread;

https://www.triketalk.com/forum/thr...aust-Extension-Rusted-Off?p=945593#post945593

 

[Ray & Paula]

Got the brakes adjusted but..... I ran into another problem other than brakes. When it rains, it pours! As I was cleaning up the bike from our ride, I found my left exhaust pipe being loose. Pulled the wheel off for further inspection and found Lehman's exhaust pipe rusted off as shown in the pic's below. Thank goodness it rusted off about 3/4" within the Honda oem exhaust pipe.

Created the following thread;

https://www.triketalk.com/forum/thr...aust-Extension-Rusted-Off?p=945593#post945593

Exhaust complete!! Now back to my ongoing nightmare........

 

[Jack Klarich]

Exhaust complete!! Now back to my ongoing nightmare........

Still following

 

[Ray & Paula]

Still following

Thank you Jack! Very much appreciated!! Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

First, I apologize about getting off topic but, I'm sure you understand I had to get the exhaust extensions taken care of before proceeding. Present condition; Upon applying the brakes front & rear together, front "or" rear only, the brakes are grabbing with "close" lockup and pulling to the right. Yesterday, I pulled off the right drum which had lots of brake shoe dust with the front leading shoe showing the most wear. I then proceeded to clean up all the dust and inspected the assembly.

Everything was dry including the brake shoe pads. I then followed up by re-adjusting both rear's giving them just a touch of drag. Hopefully, the wear on the leading shoe won't cause a pulling problem in itself. My plan at this point is to re-bleed the entire system front & rear just in case there is air in the system.... I would bet there isn't but, I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway in a different fashion.

I've been bleeding the rear starting with the left side then proceeding to the right as usual. This is the recommended procedure by many due to the left being the furthest from the rear MC. Upon looking over Lehman's layout "on mine", the longest brake line run is actually on the right. **Due to the brake lines being buried preceding the swingarm, I believe the following holds true to where they're coming from.

The brake line from the rear MC runs over the swingarm centrally with an inline one way flow Self Bleed Check Valve (I believe this is Lehman's installed line). If anyone knows different, please let me know. The other main brake line is coming from the front Secondary MC & Proportional Control Valve which runs side by side at this point with the other. Both main lines run to the rear differential, curving to the left side to a junction block mounted on top of the left rear axle.

Exiting the J block are the left & right rear brake lines. The line to the left brake backer plate is only 10" long, the line running to the right side is approx. 36" long..... Hence, the right side being the furthest from the rear MC. After reading other threads about starting on the left through the years, I just followed suit. I would have to say that their J blocks were mounted on the right side unlike mine. With that being said, I have always bled the rears starting on the left side first in the past without incident.

Self Bleed Check Valve: https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd?itemno=260-3501

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Below has been my exact procedure for manually brake bleeding. My Honda Service Manual is quite different. The manual states the following when not using a air bleeder; Pump the brake pedal several (5-10) times quickly, then depress the brake pedal all the way and loosen the bleed valve 1/4 turn. Wait several seconds and close the bleed valve. Release the brake pedal slowly and wait several seconds after it reaches the end of its travel. Then repeat the entire procedure. This procedure must be due to the air bleeding from removing all of the brake fluid out of the system in which I've never done.

I have always manually bled with a single pump at a time due to not wanting to introduce air bubbles by;

1) Loosen Bleeder

2) Press brake pedal down slow & hold down

3) Tighten bleeder

4) Let up on brake

5) Repeat until firm

I now use speed bleeder's which is much faster but, I don't pump the pedal or hand brake fast as Honda states. Maybe I should invest in an air bleeder such as this one for example; https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-...-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

It doesn't appear that moisture from an air compressor would be introduced. I.M.O., it would certainly remove any air that may be in the lines along with being a faster procedure. It should also prove solid fluid pass through of all the lines. Has anyone here gone this route? If so, what's your thoughts and/or recommendations?

As for my procedure, I have always started with the rear MC then to the front MC. Honda Shop Manual doesn't specifically state to start with the front brakes or the rear brakes.

Rear MC:

Rear: Left

Rear: Right

Front: Left Upper

Front: Right Lower

Anti-Dive: Left Lower Fork



Front Brake Lever:

Front: Right Upper

Front: Left Lower

Once I get everything bled, I'll take it for a test run..... providing if the rain here in Michigan ever stops. When done, I'll jack up the rear to see if either side is sticking. If so, I'll quickly loosen it's bleeder screw to see if it frees up before it cools off. I'll report back once I get done with the test. At this point, my gut feeling is it's either the SMC or the Proportional valve. Thanks goes out to all of you for sticking with me through this ordeal! Ray ThumbUp

Now they're predicting snow at the end of the week. :Crap:

 

[Jack Klarich]

You have a solid plan, I believe your problem is not air in the system, tho all of this is strange since you had no problem with the braking prior

Never ever pump brakes rapidly and or use long strokes

Pumping rapidly will churn the fluid and cause more bubbles, long strokes can roll the seal in the master causing a leaky master

A vacuum bleeder works good as long as you keep the masters topped off while bleeding

it sounds to me more like there is a linking of the brakes problems

 

[Ray & Paula]

You have a solid plan, I believe your problem is not air in the system, tho all of this is strange since you had no problem with the braking prior

Yes, it's beyond strange.

Never ever pump brakes rapidly and or use long strokes

Pumping rapidly will churn the fluid and cause more bubbles, long strokes can roll the seal in the master causing a leaky master

I absolutely agree 100%... Why Honda states this in their service manual is beyond me.

A vacuum bleeder works good as long as you keep the masters topped off while bleeding

Never used one but, seems to be a good way to go. I would definitely have the MC manned during the process.



it sounds to me more like there is a linking of the brakes problems I feel the same way... The Proportional Control Valve and Self Bleed Check Valve will be the two tough ones to replace. I'll probably go for the SMC next.

Thanks Jack, appreciate your help along with hanging in there with me! Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Well.... I'm still SOL. Manually bled the entire system using just under two quarts of fluid making sure of not having trapped air. Every bit of fluid at all the bleeders was just as clear coming out as it was going in. Of course it should be, I've used well over a gallon since I started this nightmare....LOL. Took a 20 mile stop and go test yesterday. Seemed to be better at first like all the other times but now, both rear wheels are dragging giving me plenty of brake dust on the inner wheels. I don't feel the drag while riding, just when I'm pushing it around in neutral.

As far as the pulling to the right, it was intermittent, surely due to both sides dragging. Jacked it up as soon as I got back from the stop and go run. Both wheels were hot and did rotate but, with resistance. Pumped the pedal brake a couple times which in return made the resistance worse. I then let it cool off for a few hours and was able to rotate both with very little resistance. I left plenty of room for expansion in rear MC reservoir only filling it between the half and full marks.

There are four more components that could be causing this problem; Secondary MC, Proportional Control Valve, Delay Valve & Self Bleed Check Valve. Looks like I'll be chasing those in that order next. Plus, I'll probably change the shoes again. I truly would like to get rid of this entire drum brake linked chaos and go to disc brakes like the Monarch ll. I believe those came out a year or two after mine...(Headbang) I'm going to give Niehaus Cycle in Litchfield, IL a call to see if they have any of those brake kit's available along with them doing the job. Problem is, finding a Lehman experienced installer is worse than finding a needle in a haystack.

Looking at the Monarch ll setup (below), it's a much cleaner hydraulic system with the Honda Proportional Control Valve removed. Plus, I don't see the inline Self Bleed Check Valve. Although it doesn't show it on Lehmans diagram, there is a Residual Valve (pg 24 in manual) mounted along the frame. Right now, I need to take a deep breath and keep moving forward..... Other than this brake issue, this trike runs and sounds great and looks close to new. Thanks again for hanging in. Ray ThumbUp

Lehman Monarch ll Downloadable pdf Installation Manual - Note: Nice clean manual once downloaded: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/932385/Lehman-Trikes-Monarch-Ii-Honda-Gl1800.html#manual

**See pages 14 thru 16 and pages 24 thru 26



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[ROAD DOG]

I read some of this off & on, I just read the whole thing, Dam this has been a long time. Have you replaced any off the rubber brake hoses ? the rubber hoses deteriorate on the inside & wont let the fluid return, had 3 year old ford F150 front brakes would be smoking after 10 miles, just pickup a old Road King had to cut the front brake lines to push it out off the garage. I would try that next ?

 

[Ray & Paula]

I read some of this off & on, I just read the whole thing, Dam this has been a long time. Have you replaced any off the rubber brake hoses ? the rubber hoses deteriorate on the inside & wont let the fluid return, had 3 year old ford F150 front brakes would be smoking after 10 miles, just pickup a old Road King had to cut the front brake lines to push it out off the garage. I would try that next ?

Thanks for the help.... That's a great point about the brake lines deteriorating inside. I haven't replaced any brake lines at this point. I was going to do a line check after this last test run if the right side repeated itself starting at the bleeder on down the line until the brakes would release. Since it's now both rears and not a hard lock up, I'm leaning even more so at the Secondary MC and/or the Proportional Valve.

This is not to say there isn't a brake line issue, it very well could be. As shown in post 129, portions of those brake lines are buried into never land but, if I have to chase I'll chase it down one way or the other. It's been an ongoing nightmare to say the least.... especially just performing a simple brake shoe swap. Thanks to everyone's great advice and help here, I've been trying to find and eliminate the issue. I can't say enough how much I appreciate you guys. Thanks again for the help. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Thanks for your input.... Love my trike and CSC Escapade trailer combo and I.M.O., certainly not out dated. Thanks again. ThumbUp

 

[ROAD DOG]

Thanks for the help.... That's a great point about the brake lines deteriorating inside. I haven't replaced any brake lines at this point. I was going to do a line check after this last test run if the right side repeated itself starting at the bleeder on down the line until the brakes would release. Since it's now both rears and not a hard lock up, I'm leaning even more so at the Secondary MC and/or the Proportional Valve. This is not to say there isn't a brake line issue, it very well could be. As shown in post 129, portions of those brake lines are buried into never land but, if I have to chase I'll chase it down one way or the other. It's been an ongoing nightmare to say the least.... especially just performing a simple brake shoe swap. Thanks to everyone's great advice and help here, I've been trying to find and eliminate the issue. I can't say enough how much I appreciate you guys. Thanks again for the help. Ray ThumbUp

The rubber hoses, not the steel lines.

 

[Ray & Paula]

The rubber hoses, not the steel lines.

Thanks.... Yes, the rubber hoses. ThumbUp

 

[Marc H]

I've been following but have forgotten all the exact steps you've taken.I have 2 questions. 1 Was this just a maintenance shoe to begin with?No problems before. 2 Did you have the drums turned? Reason for 1 is I know you've changed the shoes several times but have you changed all the other parts a second time (maybe got wrong/defective/misboxed parts).Reason for 2 is if you had the drums turned and they took too much possibly have the arch screwed upso the shoes aren't making correct contact or they took more off 1 side and one getting way more bite that the other. Yes I know #2 is a stretch.

 

[ROAD DOG]

Thanks for your input.... Love my trike and CSC Escapade trailer combo and I.M.O., certainly not out dated. Thanks again. ThumbUp

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Thats a great looking trike. If it were mine, I would try to find rear disc brake kit, maybe summit racing or Jeggs would have a kit to fit the same application as whatever you using for the drum brake parts ?

 

[Ray & Paula]

Thats a great looking trike. If it were mine, I would try to find rear disc brake kit, maybe summit racing or Jeggs would have a kit to fit the same application as whatever you using for the drum brake parts ?

Thanks.... Going to disc brakes is exactly what I would like to do. I'm not a mechanic therefore, I would want to make sure I got it done right. I'm going to give Niehaus Cycle a call today just to feel them out along with having any kits left over. Thanks, appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

I've been following but have forgotten all the exact steps you've taken.I have 2 questions. 1 Was this just a maintenance shoe to begin with?No problems before. 2 Did you have the drums turned?

Thanks Marc... I started by replacing all my tires. Followed up by thinking it's a good time to replace the rear shoes since I haven't done so since 2015. Front and rear brakes have been performing flawlessly until this change. Instead of thinking pre-maintenance, I should've been thinking; If it's not broke, don't fix it. As they say, hindsight is a beautiful thing..... LOL. Yes, I just had the drums turned (post 124) while I was installing the new rear MC. Yes, this is the first road test since doing so. Muffler Man shop here has been around forever and does both mufflers and brakes. I did ask them if they could mic them when I took them in but, they stated that they didn't have a mic to do it with. They added, they're machine will automatically turn them properly.

For some reason I couldn't post all I had to say. Please see the following post.

 

[Ray & Paula]

Continuing from previous post;

Upon picking them up, I asked if both of them needed it and they stated yes but, not real bad. I didn't pursue further since I knew they have been turning drums for years. I don't have a mic to check them with but, it's definitely worth pursuing. Also, while hand turning the wheel, it rotates fairly easy with the exception of 1/4 of the full revolution. With that being said, the drag doesn't sound/feel evenly as it should. You certainly may be onto something about contact. When I first adjusted them for this last test run, I only gave them a very slight drag.

As far as brake parts, I used the same part numbers as Lehman recommended in their small parts list (below). I went by these part numbers back in 2015 when I installed the shoes and wheel cylinders. In a nut shell, the following is my ridiculous list:

 

[Ray & Paula]

Just got off the phone with Neihaus Cycle. I gave Brian in service the run down of what I've done. He stated that they could take a look at it but, I would have to leave it. In regards to the later disc brake kits, none are available. I asked if he still had any of the older Lehman trike installers there and he stated no. I then asked if they get many in for service and he stated, some. Not quite the answer I wanted but, I suspected it would be as answered. :Crap:

 

[ROAD DOG]

Just got off the phone with Neihaus Cycle. I gave Brian in service the run down of what I've done. He stated that they could take a look at it but, I would have to leave it. In regards to the later disc brake kits, none are available. I asked if he still had any of the older Lehman trike installers there and he stated no. I then asked if they get many in for service and he stated, some. Not quite the answer I wanted but, I suspected it would be as answered. :Crap:

Remove the rubber hoses & try to blow air through them in the return directions. Yes it's a lot of work but you will know if there good.

 

[Ray & Paula]

Remove the rubber hoses & try to blow air through them in the return directions. Yes it's a lot of work but you will know if there good.

Thanks.... I plan on doing that but first, I'm going to have to figure out how to get to the buried rubber lines. I know it's going to be a job therefore, I have to hold on that due to snow in the forecast and leaf cleanup here in Michigan. The weather is changing rapidly this week.... Thanks again, appreciate your help. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Jack Klarich]

Thanks.... I plan on doing that but first, I'm going to have to figure out how to get to the buried rubber lines. I know it's going to be a job therefore, I have to hold on that due to snow in the forecast and leaf cleanup here in Michigan. The weather is changing rapidly this week.... Thanks again, appreciate your help. Ray ThumbUp

Would removing the body make that easier?

 

[Ray & Paula]

Would removing the body make that easier?

It probably would.... It would have been nice if Lehman would have created an installation manual like they did for the Monarch ll. I'll take a look at that manual closer which should be similar to a degree. I'm sure it would be quite a job to take on. With this crappy weather coming, I'm not sure how much further I'm going to be able to take this project. I am going to get my hands on a SMC just to have one on hand if nothing else, but more than likely I'll install it. Thanks Jack, appreciate ya hanging in there with me big time! Ray ThumbUp

 

[ROAD DOG]

It probably would.... It would have been nice if Lehman would have created an installation manual like they did for the Monarch ll. I'll take a look at that manual closer which should be similar to a degree. I'm sure it would be quite a job to take on. With this crappy weather coming, I'm not sure how much further I'm going to be able to take this project. I am going to get my hands on a SMC just to have one on hand if nothing else, but more than likely I'll install it. Thanks Jack, appreciate ya hanging in there with me big time! Ray ThumbUp

Speedway Motors has a Wilwood disc brake kit that should fit, they have a video that shows how to measure the back spacing for the rotors & bolt pattern for the mount brackets Speedway part # 83511407146d Wilwood part # 140-7146-dfdli $ 1088.11. You all ready had the backing plates off, so installing the disc brakes would be the same pull the backing plates off install the disc brake brackets, install the rotors then the calipers, the hard part would be doing the brake hoses to the calipers you can buy the hoses from Speedway . Its not going to be easy, Not that bad. With what you have done so far you can do it. Good winter project . Easy For Me to Say

 

[Marc H]

Things that wouldn't bother a car will affect a trike. Possibly that extra drag for the 1/4 turn is enough.

 

[Ray & Paula]

Speedway Motors has a Wilwood disc brake kit that should fit....

Thank you Dan for digging into this.... First, Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner. For some reason I didn't receive any notifications from you or Marc H.

Without doubt, I would love to do this conversion. Yes, pulling the axles and removing the backing plates wasn't that bad. The Ford measurements in the video from Speedway Motors seemed to straight forward (link below). As for the brake lines, you're right, it would be the hard part mainly due to the Lehman and Honda oem linked conversion mix.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't know what to remove and/or to add. The closest brake line layout from Lehman is their disc brake installation for their Monarch ll (manual link below). I'd like to add, I safely downloaded this manual which is a great pdf. Unfortunately, the manual has many unavailable part numbers. Looking at the Honda oem and Lehman diagrams below, it shows that Lehman removed the Honda Proportional Valve.

With that being said, there isn't any mentioning of this in their installation manual. I'm not going to give up on this idea, I just need to be better informed on the original Lehman layout. Thanks for leading me in the right direction towards disc brakes, I sincerely appreciate all your help. Ray ThumbUp

Measuring video is in the description picture mix; https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wilw...rake-Kit-Ford-8-8-w-2-5-Off-5-Lug,106096.html

Lehman Monarch ll Installation Manual: The brake install is in two sections; Pages 14 - 16 and 24 - 26 https://www.manualslib.com/manual/932385/Lehman-Trikes-Monarch-Ii-Honda-Gl1800.html

 

[Sidecarbill]

It's a shame a simple brake shoe replacement has come to this.:Shrug: