God awful noise when starting

[engprosinc]

I have the a major starting problem on my 05 Ultra trike with a 103 SE engine with non-stock cams and 5 speed trans. Battery new, 20K on clock. All fluids changed when I bought the trike used in June 2013. Stock mufflers.
When engine is cold, it starts OK. When the engine is hot, I start with the trans in neutral, clutch in, wait for idiot light to go off. Starter engages for a split second, then produces a God awful noise. This will continue until it just happens to start.
Yesterday, when I rode the bike home after a 30 mile ride, and put it in the garage, I turned off the engine, then immediately tried to restart, and had the same God awful noise and no-start. When I let the engine cool down for a few hours it started right up each time I tried. Ditto the next morning when I started it up.

Someone on HDforums suggested that I try a procedure of "quick start" without waiting for the idiot light to go off. I hope it will work for me.

My intuition tells me it is caused by the engine temperature, and high compression without compression release.

Has anyone had similar problesms? How was it corrected?

BTW I've read that to solve this ongoing problem, the HD stealer will fix it by installing an "SE compensator sprocket", which is now standard on the newer model engines. The hardware alone costs $250.00. I don't know about labor

This has been an ongoing problem which HD says is "NORMAL" WTH?

 

[Rick Kay]

Sometimes the starter on my bike "stalls". I immediately let up on the button, give it a couple of seconds, then hit the starter again; the bike starts without problem. If I hold the button after the starter stalls, I get a clanking noise, which sounds like the motor is coming apart, but the bike starts and then runs normally.

 

[trikermutha]

does it sound like a clank when its hot while starting???

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

What cams are installed in your engine?? If they installed the 255 cams then yes this can be the part of the problem. These cams have high static compression to start and without compression releases it is worse when hot. Add in the carbon build up on top of the pistons and it will be even higher

I would start with checking all battery cable connections at the battery, starter lead on the solenoid and the ground strap for both tightness and look for any corrosion at the connection tabs and around the ends of the battery cables. Add a little dab of battery corrosion grease can go a along way to prevent corrosion if there is any.

If you have one or access to one to get a compression tester and do a warm compression check. for both cylinders. If the compression is higher than 185 in one or both of the cylinders this will cause a hot start issue.

Depending on the age of the starter and the mileage on your trike it could be the issue itself. You might have to replace it.

Another possibility is your current tune in the ecm for the engine. Its possible the timing is too advanced for it start when hot.

Last, the SE compensator in not going to fit your engine. The SE compensator is designed for the 06 and up Dynas 07 and newer Softails and Touring bikes.

Tom

 

[eagle1]

make sure you battery is fully charged. have it load tested at any bike shop or auto parts store. with the relief cams, you need a 100% charged battery. what does the volt meter show when you start it. ie how far down fron 14.0V does it go?
i like this shorai lithium iron battery, its 540CCA & 36 AH and weighs 5 lbs.
W 3.39" X 6.55 L X 6.10 H. AT BATTERYSTUFF.COM.

 

[msocko3]

What cams are installed in your engine?? If they installed the 255 cams then yes this can be the part of the problem. These cams have high static compression to start and without compression releases it is worse when hot. Add in the carbon build up on top of the pistons and it will be even higher

I would start with checking all battery cable connections at the battery, starter lead on the solenoid and the ground strap for both tightness and look for any corrosion at the connection tabs and around the ends of the battery cables. Add a little dab of battery corrosion grease can go a along way to prevent corrosion if there is any.

If you have one or access to one to get a compression tester and do a warm compression check. for both cylinders. If the compression is higher than 185 in one or both of the cylinders this will cause a hot start issue.

Depending on the age of the starter and the mileage on your trike it could be the issue itself. You might have to replace it.

Another possibility is your current tune in the ecm for the engine. Its possible the timing is too advanced for it start when hot.

Last, the SE compensator in not going to fit your engine. The SE compensator is designed for the 06 and up Dynas 07 and newer Softails and Touring bikes.

Tom

:Agree: too much cranking pressure and it won't like hot starts, sometimes it can be a simple tweak in the starting area of the timing table. To get the 120 in my 06 to crank reliable with the stock starter I ended up having Baisley make me a custom set of compression releases to stay open longer plus I pulled timing out in the start up area of the map along with getting the cranking fuel in a happy place.

 

[engprosinc]

does it sound like a clank when its hot while starting???

It's difficult to describe. The starter starts to engage for a split second, then it stops and the noise sounds like the engine is falling apart. It is really spooky, and I am afraid of damaging the engine.
I tried the procedure of starting before the idiot light goes out, and it worked each time with a hot engine.
The HD stealer said I am tricking the start cycle by hitting the start button before the diagnostics are completed. Tricking? What does that mean? Will it hurt the engine somehow?
If this trick works for me without hurting the engine or starter, so be it. I'd be a fool not to continue to use it wouldn't I?

 

[engprosinc]

What cams are installed in your engine?? If they installed the 255 cams then yes this can be the part of the problem. These cams have high static compression to start and without compression releases it is worse when hot. Add in the carbon build up on top of the pistons and it will be even higher

I would start with checking all battery cable connections at the battery, starter lead on the solenoid and the ground strap for both tightness and look for any corrosion at the connection tabs and around the ends of the battery cables. Add a little dab of battery corrosion grease can go a along way to prevent corrosion if there is any.

If you have one or access to one to get a compression tester and do a warm compression check. for both cylinders. If the compression is higher than 185 in one or both of the cylinders this will cause a hot start issue.

Depending on the age of the starter and the mileage on your trike it could be the issue itself. You might have to replace it.

Another possibility is your current tune in the ecm for the engine. Its possible the timing is too advanced for it start when hot.

Last, the SE compensator in not going to fit your engine. The SE compensator is designed for the 06 and up Dynas 07 and newer Softails and Touring bikes.

Tom

The dealer put in cams on the 103 when it was installed in 05. He called them the "203" cams. Don't know what that means. I will check the compression cold and see what it reads. My guess is it will be high.
I ordered the PV-1 for the tune. I am not too optimistic because many of my fellow riders have had the same problem. Many say I need an SE compensator, but I assume an SE engine has an SE compensator...or maybe it doesn't.

 

[engprosinc]

:Agree: too much cranking pressure and it won't like hot starts, sometimes it can be a simple tweak in the starting area of the timing table. To get the 120 in my 06 to crank reliable with the stock starter I ended up having Baisley make me a custom set of compression releases to stay open longer plus I pulled timing out in the start up area of the map along with getting the cranking fuel in a happy place.

How can I tell if my 103 engine has a compression release? Do all SE engines come with a release, or is it an option or add-on?

 

[engprosinc]

:Agree: too much cranking pressure and it won't like hot starts, sometimes it can be a simple tweak in the starting area of the timing table. To get the 120 in my 06 to crank reliable with the stock starter I ended up having Baisley make me a custom set of compression releases to stay open longer plus I pulled timing out in the start up area of the map along with getting the cranking fuel in a happy place.

I will check the cold compression ASAP. I ordered a Dynojet PV-1 tuner to see if I can change the variables to solve this annoying, and potentially expensive problem.

 

[trikermutha]

How can I tell if my 103 engine has a compression release? Do all SE engines come with a release, or is it an option or add-on?

sometimes they are on the side by the spark plugs and need to be pulled manually until the engine starts then they close automatically. There are electric versions that open when the starter is pressed.

Do you have another dealer or bike shop in your area?? I would take it in for another opionion..

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

The dealer put in cams on the 103 when it was installed in 05. He called them the "203" cams. Don't know what that means. I will check the compression cold and see what it reads. My guess is it will be high.
I ordered the PV-1 for the tune. I am not too optimistic because many of my fellow riders have had the same problem. Many say I need an SE compensator, but I assume an SE engine has an SE compensator...or maybe it doesn't.

The 203 cams were not designed for anything over a 96" and are a bad choice for a 103" engine especially in a trike setup.

Regardless of what others say, as I have stated the SE Compensator wont fit the 05 crankshaft. Your stock 88" engine case was bored out to be a 103" then they installed a Screamin Eagle 4 3/8" crankshaft # 23600-00A

As per HD Screamin Eagle part catalog>>>

Screamin’ Eagle® Big Twin Compensator
This premium compensator has been engineered with heavier
springs and increased travel to support the high torque
output associated with high-compression race and large
displacement engines. Designed to support up to 7 times
the energy absorption capacity of the Original Equipment
compensator, this unit helps protect the engine and driveline
components during harsh drag race launches. This
Compensator is the perfect addition to a complete performance
upgrade, and it complements the installation of the
Screamin’ Eagle® Performance Clutch Hub P/N 37976-08.
40274-08A $249.95
Fits ’06-’11 Dyna®, ’07-’11 Softail® (except FXCW, FXCWC
and FXSTSSE3) and ’07-’10 Touring models. Original
Equipment on Trike, ’11-later Touring and ’12-later Dyna and
Softail models. Installation on ’06 Dyna models requires
separate purchase of ’07-style stator.



Right now you have several problems to address.

If in fact the 203 cams are installed then they will need to be changed.

You will need to most likely have to replace the starter. After enough kick back and grinding it to get it to hot start the engine, its gonna fail soon.

Last you need a good tune


The attached picture is what manual compression releases look like. You push the button down ( Not pull up ) they pop up once the compression builds as the engine starts. If they stick, then you will have to pull the stuck one up

 

[msocko3]

Right now you have several problems to address.

If in fact the 203 cams are installed then they will need to be changed.

You will need to most likely have to replace the starter. After enough kick back and grinding it to get it to hot start the engine, its gonna fail soon.

Last you need a good tune


The attached picture is what manual compression releases look like. You push the button down ( Not pull up ) they pop up once the compression builds as the engine starts. If they stick, then you will have to pull the stuck one up

:Agree: It never fails to amaze me what goofy combinations of parts dealers will come up with. Some of those guys shouldn't even be allowed to look at a motorcycle engine let alone touch one.

 

[engprosinc]

The 203 cams were not designed for anything over a 96" and are a bad choice for a 103" engine especially in a trike setup.

Regardless of what others say, as I have stated the SE Compensator wont fit the 05 crankshaft. Your stock 88" engine case was bored out to be a 103" then they installed a Screamin Eagle 4 3/8" crankshaft # 23600-00A

As per HD Screamin Eagle part catalog>>>

Screamin’ Eagle® Big Twin Compensator
This premium compensator has been engineered with heavier
springs and increased travel to support the high torque
output associated with high-compression race and large
displacement engines. Designed to support up to 7 times
the energy absorption capacity of the Original Equipment
compensator, this unit helps protect the engine and driveline
components during harsh drag race launches. This
Compensator is the perfect addition to a complete performance
upgrade, and it complements the installation of the
Screamin’ Eagle® Performance Clutch Hub P/N 37976-08.
40274-08A $249.95
Fits ’06-’11 Dyna®, ’07-’11 Softail® (except FXCW, FXCWC
and FXSTSSE3) and ’07-’10 Touring models. Original
Equipment on Trike, ’11-later Touring and ’12-later Dyna and
Softail models. Installation on ’06 Dyna models requires
separate purchase of ’07-style stator.



Right now you have several problems to address.

If in fact the 203 cams are installed then they will need to be changed.

You will need to most likely have to replace the starter. After enough kick back and grinding it to get it to hot start the engine, its gonna fail soon.

Last you need a good tune


The attached picture is what manual compression releases look like. You push the button down ( Not pull up ) they pop up once the compression builds as the engine starts. If they stick, then you will have to pull the stuck one up

Thanks for the reply.
Do you have any recommendation regarding the cams? If so, is this something I could change (good motor head experience...mostly on cars and boat inboard engines)? I am not afraid to try after doing some research into the correct method.
I am scheduled to take the trike into the shop today for them to look see regarding the problems.
Thanks again.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

You need to get all info on the engine build from the dealer who did this engine.

We know its a 103"

What heads, Stock or Screamin Eagle heads? If the SE heads, which Screamin Eagle heads ( part # would help also if available )

What pistons? Flat tops or high compression? If SE pistons were used, what part # for the pistons would help

What thickness gasket were used for both the cylinder base gaskets & what thickness head gaskets? Was the o ring base gasket retained, or did they use a different base gasket ? If so what was the thickness IE: .010 .020? Same goes for the head gaskets for thickness .030 .040 .043??

Did the mechanic measure the piston @ TDC if so was the piston down in the hole, flush with the top of the cylinder, or was it proud? This will help determine a few things with compression

What size is your throttle body?

What exhaust are you using? Head pipe and mufflers?

What your goals for power with this engine? How do you ride?

All this needs to be known to determine what would be good cam for your engine

Tom

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

:Agree: It never fails to amaze me what goofy combinations of parts dealers will come up with. Some of those guys shouldn't even be allowed to look at a motorcycle engine let alone touch one.

:Agree: There are some hacks in independent shops too. Must of went through the same educational program.......:Shrug::Shrug:

 

[engprosinc]

The stealer replaced the starter clutch. It starts hot or cold. No unusual noise.
Amen

 

[captdanwh]

I had a new starter put in after my old one finally bit the dust. after the new install I was getting God awful noises maybe something like you guys are having and it was worse when hot. my mechanic said it was normal and after 3 months of listening to the noise it finally did not start. I was up in Pa. when this happened and had to tow it to a Harley dealer in Williamsport, Pa. upon inspection they found out that the locating dowels that align the starter with the clutch ring gear(2007) were never installed and the pinion gear on the starter was shot and it also broke off teeth on the ring gear so both had to be replaced. my mechanic said that there never was any dowels on my bike so he just replaced the starter without them. that mistake cost me $1100.00 I don't know if that is your noise problem but it is not a hard thing to do to check it out.

 

[WildBC]

When engine is cold, it starts OK. When the engine is hot, I start with the trans in neutral, clutch in, wait for idiot light to go off. Starter engages for a split second, then produces a God awful noise. This will continue until it just happens to start.
Yesterday, when I rode the bike home after a 30 mile ride, and put it in the garage, I turned off the engine, then immediately tried to restart, and had the same God awful noise and no-start. When I let the engine cool down for a few hours it started right up each time I tried. Ditto the next morning when I started it up.



Has anyone had similar problesms? How was it corrected?

BTW I've read that to solve this ongoing problem, the HD stealer will fix it by installing an "SE compensator sprocket", which is now standard on the newer model engines. The hardware alone costs $250.00. I don't know about labor

This has been an ongoing problem which HD says is "NORMAL" WTH?

I have an 07 Ultra that started doing the very same thing only a year into it's life. Rode it that way for awhile, until it got worse, and I couldn't stand it anymore. Had my dealer put the SE compensator on it and it hasn't happened again since that repair. About $400 parts and labor. The part they took off was really "banged" up. So far, that's the only "repair" I have done to it. The bike has around 55,000 miles on it today.