Pinion seal on Viper conversion

[pwhoever]

Ok, I got some clarification from Will. Sealant does go on the back of the nut. As far as back of the yoke, a bead of sealant should go not on the back "face" but on the chamfered rear section by where the yoke splines are. The sealant will then get spread between the yoke splines and pinion shaft splines to seal it so that between sealant on back of nut and in the splunes, no oil can escape. The rubber part on the seal should match up with the smooth back outside of yoke and that should prevent any gear oil from leaking that way. I think I will still put a little gear oil on that just for good measure.

I also asked about the importance of the positioning of the yoke on the shaft because I didn't mark any of that prior to removal. I was told that it really doesn't matter, just put it back on and I should be good.

I also asked about the shaft seal and how far it should be installed. I mentioned I was finally able to get it flush with the face of the rear end and was told that's exactly where it should be.

I'm glad I'm finally headed in the right direction.

 

[BrokenBackJack]

Well your getting the hard parts done and now to just finish the install.

 

[pwhoever]

Yup, looking forward to getting this completed. Unfortunately my calendar for the weekend is a bit booked up so I'm hoping to finish up Monday afternoon. I know I'm about to jinx myself but shouldn't take more than an hour or 2 to get everything buttoned up and get in a test run...

 

[BrokenBackJack]

Well here is hoping it all goes together like it should and also that it all works like it should.

Good luck!!!

 

[pwhoever]

I had some free time this afternoon and got it all put back together. I just did everything in reverse so I didn't take photos during this. And surprisingly nothing strange happened. I did clean up all the nuts bolts and various parts that needed to go back on. I wiped down the rear end plate of dirty oil as well as I could. I filled up the gear oil after reinstalling the drain bolt. I'm going to let it sit for a day to make sure the Permatex liquid gasket do its thing. No extra parts left over and no missing tools so I tentatively call this a win. Only thing left is to take it out for a spin tomorrow and check to make sure there are no strange noises or leaks...

Just a quick tip though, make sure to wear some rubber gloves when dealing with liquid gasket stuff. LOL!

 

[Jack Klarich]

I had some free time this afternoon and got it all put back together. I just did everything in reverse so I didn't take photos during this. And surprisingly nothing strange happened. I did clean up all the nuts bolts and various parts that needed to go back on. I wiped down the rear end plate of dirty oil as well as I could. I filled up the gear oil after reinstalling the drain bolt. I'm going to let it sit for a day to make sure the Permatex liquid gasket do its thing. No extra parts left over and no missing tools so I tentatively call this a win. Only thing left is to take it out for a spin tomorrow and check to make sure there are no strange noises or leaks...

Just a quick tip though, make sure to wear some rubber gloves when dealing with liquid gasket stuff. LOL!

Good job:clapping:

 

[pwhoever]

I got out to take a test drive tonight. Seems good. I had a section to get it up to 80mph and no strange vibrations. The only thing I noticed was that shifting "seems" a bit stiffer but not too hard to do. I'm about due for another oil change and maybe it's just letting me know. I tried looking at the seal but with gravel pan in place, it's a bit difficult. I was able to get my cellphone in there and snapped a few photos. First one was taken by my buddy while we were out in Custer, SD.



The next one was tonight. Big improvement...

 

[Jack Klarich]

Looks good, now relax and have a cold one

 

[BrokenBackJack]

Congrats and well done!

 

[pwhoever]

Well looks like it's still not fixed. A very slight leak is still there. It appears to be coming from behind the yoke and most likely the rubber part of new seal. I ended up picking up a better air impact wrench to try and snug up the pinion nut and I was able to get it a little over 1/8" tighter. I had been leery about trying to tighten the nut because I wasn't sure if it would compromise the liquid silicone gasket I used when putting it all back together. This time when removing the driveshaft, I ended up moving the rear end so the bolts were right in the middle of slots on the differential mounting plate. I checked and there is now only about 1/2" of play on driveshaft front to rear but just enough so driveshaft can be unbolted and removed with a little wiggling. I left gravel pan off and went on a long ride. Before leaving I cleaned up as much as I could first. One thing I did notice right away was that the smooth shifting was now back and I was happy about that. After getting back though, there was still a small drip from behind the yoke.

So I dived back in and unbolted the driveshaft again. I figure that because of the the possibility that I compromised the liquid gasket, I might as well pull everything apart and redo it. Because I did reposition the rear end, I saved myself the extra step of unbolting and moving that. I then undid the pinion bolt. It took about the same force with air impact wrench to remove as it did when first going after the original leaking seal. After pulling the yoke, I inspected the new seal and it looks just fine. Around the metal part of the seal was a very small amount of grime but it wiped away. I cleaned up a bunch of the gasket stuff off the nut and hit it with some brake cleaner to remove it all. I did the same with the splines on the yoke. The pinion shaft may be a small problem. I don't really want to hit that with brake cleaner because I don't want that inside of the rear end mixing with gear oil. (I forgot to mention that I did drain the rear end again first...) Most of the gasket stuff seems to have come off the shaft by picking and peeling. It seems like I got the majority of it off though.

But this is where I'm at now. I haven't tried reinstalling anything yet. I've been doing a ton of Google research. One thing that popped out was that when using the Permatex Ultra Black silicone sealant is that you must have patience. I saw posts mentioning that when using it, initially install the components and only finger tighten them. Give it about an hour and then fully tighten the item. Then wait a full 24 hours before filling with any kind of oil or fluids. I didn't do this the first time. I used the silicone sealant where it was mentioned to do it, tightened it down, and then filled the rear end with gear oil right away. Maybe I caused this issue myself?

I'm also not sure before reinstalling the yoke if I should install a new seal as well. I looked very closely at the one I have in there now and also ran my finger around it. Nothing unusual and appears to be perfect. I'm hoping that it is OK to just go ahead and reuse this one???

But as to the initial leak, going deeper on the research, one thing I discovered is that if the rear end breather is clogged or blocked, it can cause elevated pressure and strong possibility of causing what I had initially, a leaking pinion seal. So I began looking for the breather. I found it. It sits on the right side, on the very top, just forward from the right axle. I can't see it because it's tucked way up there but found it by feel. It appears that these use a breather valve instead of a breather tube. But it is extremely difficult to get at. I tried to remove it to inspect it. It has a nut that can be loosened by using a 7/16" wrench. I don't think I'm going to be able to remove it easily. There is a steel plate immediately above it. I thought there might be just enough clearance to unscrew it and get it out but it doesn't appear to be the case.

I was able to get it almost all the way out by feel but there is almost no way to get your fingers on this. At this point it was also almost to that steel plate so not sure if there would even be enough clearance to get it out even if I did get it loose. And then, not sure if I could even get it repositioned correctly to reinstall it. I ended up just tightening it back down again and will have to brainstorm some ideas. I guess I could try to remove the rear end mounting plate to maybe get rear end to drop a bit but it's connected to the ladder arms( not sure of correct name) that are attached to the rear wheel mounts and not sure that's a good idea. Maybe I would have to get a bit motivated and remover the trike body??? Not really interested in doing that either.

So right now I'm kind of at a standstill. I really don't want to go through reinstalling everything only to end up with a leak again because the breather may be blocked but can't find any easy way to check that breather valve so I may not have a choice.

Ideas???

 

[Jack Klarich]

Some of those breathers have a steel hat type bonnet cover, you will need to get that breather out to check it to see if it is plugged. After removing it, rip the hat off and install a hose on the nipple, that way you can run the hose up and tie it out of the way, it should not give you any more trouble.

Check the lip of the pinion seal for damage, check the garter spring is still in place, make sure none of the metal around the rubber of the seal has rolled over onto the seal and or cut the seal

Typical steel type breather with a bonnet

 

[pwhoever]

It is definitely one of those with a cap on. I could feel it and was able to make it spin. Good tip on running a hose to somewhere more accessible. I just have to figure out how to get the stupid thing pulled off the top of the rear end. I will check on those things on the seal soon. Out running errands right now and I called a lid (LOL) on it for at least tonight. Maybe I can make some progress tomorrow afternoon...

 

[BrokenBackJack]

Well that certainly stinks that the seal is leaking again.

 

[ROAD DOG]

It is definitely one of those with a cap on. I could feel it and was able to make it spin. Good tip on running a hose to somewhere more accessible. I just have to figure out how to get the stupid thing pulled off the top of the rear end. I will check on those things on the seal soon. Out running errands right now and I called a lid (LOL) on it for at least tonight. Maybe I can make some progress tomorrow afternoon...

I would pull the body off, you can get a good look to see if you have anything else going on, Then you can get a can of gunk and clean it up really good, You have 4 maybe 6, 5/16 bolts unplug some wires you pull the tour pack or leave it on the body , to guys can lift it off .

 

[tourman]

Ugh The Saga continues

 

[pwhoever]

I would pull the body off, you can get a good look to see if you have anything else going on, Then you can get a can of gunk and clean it up really good, You have 4 maybe 6, 5/16 bolts unplug some wires you pull the tour pack or leave it on the body , to guys can lift it off .

This may be the route I have to take. When I first tackled this, it appeared that the leak had been there for a bit and the entire rear end as well as the mounting plate were completely covered in grime. So far, I have maybe 95% of grime gone from bottom of mounting plate along with front and sides of rear end. I know that the top of rear end is still pretty grimy from reaching up there and trying to remove the breather for inspection. I am a bit concerned with some gunk entering the hole after breather removed. Like you mention, getting the trike body off will let me view and also be able to clean this area much better...

 

[ROAD DOG]

This may be the route I have to take. When I first tackled this, it appeared that the leak had been there for a bit and the entire rear end as well as the mounting plate were completely covered in grime. So far, I have maybe 95% of grime gone from bottom of mounting plate along with front and sides of rear end. I know that the top of rear end is still pretty grimy from reaching up there and trying to remove the breather for inspection. I am a bit concerned with some gunk entering the hole after breather removed. Like you mention, getting the trike body off will let me view and also be able to clean this area much better...

On my Roadmaster CSC trike My ABS light would come on then that would make the check engine light come on, I loose the speedo, gas mileage & directional lights. I checked everything everybody said to check, did not fix it, my differential had the wrong pin installed that holds in the Spyder gears , so I pulled the body off pulled the differential out, grease and crap everywhere, found my rear shock is bad and a bad right rear wheel bearing, Called Will at CSC He's sending me a new differential & shock, I bought my own wheel bearing, Advance auto parts have some real good bearings that are black anodized shouldn't rust up like the raw steel ones that you get most places. Take the body off you never know what you will find, Well maybe you don't want to find. I Have To Thank Will at C S C

 

[pwhoever]

I reached out to CSC today and spoke to Will. He gave an "easier" solution to checking the breather other than removing the body. He explained that I'm probably not going to be able to remove the breather without major disassemble which I pretty much knew. The solution he offered seems a much more workable although still difficult method. He mentioned that the breather is a "rattle can" breather and that it's also not a one way valve. He said the important thing is to make sure the cap spins.

He then said that I would need to grab a can of brake cleaner and just spray all around and try to spray inside the cap and to use one of those little tubes that come with the brake cleaner to direct it. After spraying use compressed air to blow on and in then do it again with brake cleaner. Do this several times. Place a piece of cardboard on ground under drain hole and hopefully some brake cleaner will begin to drip out. This will show the breather is open. He mentioned that after doing the process, I may be able to use some compressed air around breather and might be able to feel some air flowing from drain hole. After all this, just let it sit overnight to make sure that the drain cleaner dries up and shouldn't be an issue inside the rear end.

I'm going to give this a try but might not be able to do it for a couple days. My only concern is that to reach the breather, I have to slide under the trike to do it. I need to figure out a way to keep that brake cleaner from splashing all over my head and body while doing this. I may remove the right wheel and see if I can get in there that way.

I do still plan on pulling the trike body over the winter to really get everything cleaned up under there because I believe it probably needs it. But I have a road trip set for end of September and don't want any complications to happen with removing and reinstalling the body. If I wait until late fall, or winter, I wont have any real time constraints to screw around with it and get it done.

 

[Jack Klarich]

If the hat moves round and slightly up and down the vent is working. It will be a plus to clean this area thoroughly

 

[pwhoever]

That cover wasn't moving when I first reached up to it. In the process of messing with it, I got the cap spinning around. But I'm still game for blasting it a bit and surrounding area with some brake cleaner for good measure. I just ordered a polycarbonate face shield on Amazon that is supposed to protect from chemical splashes. Should be here Wednesday. That at least takes care of most of my my face. Only about $16 so if it works, great. If it falls apart from brake cleaner, not a big deal. I just have to figure out the rest of my head and neck...

 

[ROAD DOG]

That cover wasn't moving when I first reached up to it. In the process of messing with it, I got the cap spinning around. But I'm still game for blasting it a bit and surrounding area with some brake cleaner for good measure. I just ordered a polycarbonate face shield on Amazon that is supposed to protect from chemical splashes. Should be here Wednesday. That at least takes care of most of my my face. Only about $16 so if it works, great. If it falls apart from brake cleaner, not a big deal. I just have to figure out the rest of my head and neck...

How did you make out ?

 

[pwhoever]

How did you make out ?

Unfortunately I was a little under the weather all week. The bug zapped most of my strength and I had a few other things to deal with. I'm planning on tackling it beginning of next week and will make a post on my progress.

 

[ROAD DOG]

Unfortunately I was a little under the weather all week. The bug zapped most of my strength and I had a few other things to deal with. I'm planning on tackling it beginning of next week and will make a post on my progress.

I no what you mean, me and the wife 18 days of covid, Still not completely done . Good Luck

 

[pwhoever]

I got tired of seeing my poor trike sitting on the ramps so I had a little free time and decided to see if I could make some progress. I was able to barely see the breather while underneath and looking above the front side of rear end. I took the can of brake cleaner with the red tube and was able to get it fairly close to the breather. I blasted it really well so hopefully any grime that was there is now gone. Last week I was able to get the cap spinning and was told that was the key to knowing the breather was working. And by hitting it heavily with brake cleaner today, I should be good to go. And by attacking it from the front of rear end, there was very little splash back and I ended up not needing any kind of goggles, just my cheater glasses that I always wear anyway.

I got the yoke back on. I checked rubber on the seal real good and it still looked OK. I made sure to put a little more gear oil all around the rubber lip. I again put some Permatex Ultra Black on chamfered edge of back of yoke and on back of pinion nut. I let them both sit for a bit before reinstalling them. I also made sure to smear a little gear oil on back outside of yoke that contacts with rubber on seal. So far, so good. But then I ran into another issue. Who would have thought??? In the process of fitting the ujoint on driveshaft into the yoke, I accidentally popped one of the caps off. I put it right back on. Of course I ended up knocking other cap off at some point as well. I put that right back on as well. I finally get the ujoint positioned in the yoke but find that the caps won't fit under the tabs.

So I pull one of the caps off and look in and can see that several of the needle rollers are on the bottom of the cap. Using tiny needle nosed pliers, I'm able to pick up each one and fit them back along inside of cap like they should be. The grease still in there holds them in position and I can see that all of the needle rollers are in this one. I popped that cap back on. I spin driveshaft to get to other cap and pull that one off. I hear something hit the ground. I was able to find a single needle bearing that fell out. I was able to fit that back I there but there appears to be a very slight gap where at least 1 more needle bearing could possibly fit in there. I am not completely sure that there is a missing one but there was this tiny gap. I looked very carefully and never found another one. But this seemed to do the trick and I was able to get the ujoint fitted properly back into the yoke and under those tabs. I went ahead and just bolted the holders and ABS ring back on.

It still bothered me on the one cap with the tiny gap between the needle bearings. These needle bearings seem to be a little different from the ones I found doing a Google search. On many, there seems to be slots that the needle bearings fit into. On the CSC driveshaft ujoint, there is no such slots and the needle bearings just sit loosely along outside wall of cap and held in with the grease. There are several warnings about missing needle bearings and ujoint failure but a couple where just 1 missing wasn't enough for concern. Many also said that the missing needle could be replaced from an old cap if you had one and it wouldn't matter. Some others said that if you have a missing needle bearing, you must replace the ujoint with a new one.

So I have several conflicting pieces of information. I really don't want to get involved in replacing the ujoint. But my gut says that this possible missing needle bearing may be an issue. My thinking is that getting a new ujoint which isn't supposed to be real expensive and then just swap the 2 caps with new needle bearings for the 2 that fit into the yoke. Then hang on to the old caps so I have extra needle bearings for back up. But the caps do fit on there fairly snug and there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room for any of the needle bearings in there to twist or bind. But the biggest problem will be identifying the ujoint for replacement. The Yoke had "Spicer" stamped into it so I'm assuming that I would be looking for a Spicer ujoint. A check online with Oreillys showed many different Spicer replacements. Some have zerk fittings and some didnt and were listed as non greasable. The ones I have do not have the zerk fitting so I'm assuming these are not greasable.

It's probably going to require a Monday morning call to Cassidy in parts at CSC. I was hoping to get in a test run to see if there were any further leaks but will have to wait just a little longer now. I did at least put the drain plug back on, filled the rear end with 1 qt of gear oil and put filler plug back in. I'm getting pretty good at this now. I didn't spill 1 drop of gear oil this time so I call that a win...

 

[BrokenBackJack]

On another forum a year or so ago someone posted what the part numbers were for the u joints but I can't find it now. Maybe someone else will chime in with it.

 

[pwhoever]

I have a part # on the u-joint. It is a Spicer 5-1310X. I found this out on yet another call to CSC. I called to speak with parts and ended up getting transferred to Will. I'm sure they would have sold me the u-joint if I wanted but Will suggested just running down to the local auto parts store and pick it up that way. And he also confirmed that I could just carefully swap out the caps instead of having to swap out the entire u-joint. I see that I can pick up one from the local Oreillys but I also found one on Amazon for almost $10 cheaper and can have it by tomorrow. That is probably what I will do...

 

[pwhoever]

I hope you guys aren't getting tired of my adventure but it's not over yet.

With my new found motivation, I decided to get things ready for the new u-joint coming tomorrow. I wanted to get the driveshaft separated from yoke so I would have to only reassemble. So again, I stuck block of wood between the rear brake lever and foot peg to lock rear brakes and hold driveshaft while I unbolted the saddles and ABS rings. After getting the first one unbolted, remove block, twist driveshaft some more, put block back in and unbolt another. So finally all 4 bolts are done and pulled and I separate the u-joint from the yoke.

But I didn't feel like I had spent enough time in the garage so I pulled the right wheel to inspect the brakes. Luckily I found the procedure in the owners manual or I probably would gave removed the whole caliper like most other brakes get done.



The directions seemed simple enough, basically remove the cotter key from slider pin, slide pin out, remove brakes... I tried to inspect the brakes first but its pretty hard to get my big head in the wheel well directly above the caliper and then look down. It did seem like the pads had worn down quite a bit so luckily, I pulled out the package of brake pads I ordered about 2 years ago just in case.

So I was able to finally get the cotter key out on front slider but the slider wasn't budging. I tried a pair of pliers, wiggling the slider and trying to push it out but it was frozen. I then sprayed down the slider with brake cleaner so this pretty much guaranteed that I was now going to have to use the new pads. Slider still frozen... I backed off for a bit to figure this out. As I was standing on the side, I happened to see the block of wood still wedged between foot brake and drivers peg. Doh!!! I removed that and went back to the slider and would you believe that it slid right out? Of course it did. There still was enough brake pad in my opinion to have gone a bit further before changing. So after doing the front set in rear caliper, I pulled the rear set and they came out real easy. Now the rear set was worn down significantly more and needed to be changed. Not sure why the front set wasn't as worn as the rear set but I felt better knowing. I took both sliders and sprayed them down real good and used a wire brush on them to make sure they were clean and smooth. Reassembly went just fine.

I was able to use the shaft of a screwdriver between the pistons and rotor to push them back in. After the initial self induced trouble, I would have to say the most difficult thing was trying to get that cotter key back in. It's very tiny and needs to be put back in behind the inside pad which doesn't move much and the hole the key goes in really isn't visible. A little trial and error and I finally got it. Right side done and I moved over to the left side. The left was pretty uneventful as I now had a better understanding of how to do it. I discovered same thing as the right, front set still had some life in them but rear set was ready for a change. Not sure how these calipers work. None of the pistons were stuck and moved easily but obviously the rear set gets used more??? I had taken many trips hauling my Aspen camper over the years so I wasn't surprised to find the brakes needed to be changed. I though they would have needed to be done before this but I'm glad I thought ahead and had the replacements on hand.

I just find it strange that one set in a caliper could be worn down more than a second set. But this might partially explain why there are 4 separate brake pads on each caliper. And these are also fixed calipers and don't move unlike most disc brakes I'm used to. Each pad get its own dedicated piston so there are outside and inside pistons so no need for the caliper to move at all. Very interesting.

 

[ROAD DOG]

I hope you guys aren't getting tired of my adventure but it's not over yet.

With my new found motivation, I decided to get things ready for the new u-joint coming tomorrow. I wanted to get the driveshaft separated from yoke so I would have to only reassemble. So again, I stuck block of wood between the rear brake lever and foot peg to lock rear brakes and hold driveshaft while I unbolted the saddles and ABS rings. After getting the first one unbolted, remove block, twist driveshaft some more, put block back in and unbolt another. So finally all 4 bolts are done and pulled and I separate the u-joint from the yoke.

But I didn't feel like I had spent enough time in the garage so I pulled the right wheel to inspect the brakes. Luckily I found the procedure in the owners manual or I probably would gave removed the whole caliper like most other brakes get done.

View attachment 109498

The directions seemed simple enough, basically remove the cotter key from slider pin, slide pin out, remove brakes... I tried to inspect the brakes first but its pretty hard to get my big head in the wheel well directly above the caliper and then look down. It did seem like the pads had worn down quite a bit so luckily, I pulled out the package of brake pads I ordered about 2 years ago just in case.

So I was able to finally get the cotter key out on front slider but the slider wasn't budging. I tried a pair of pliers, wiggling the slider and trying to push it out but it was frozen. I then sprayed down the slider with brake cleaner so this pretty much guaranteed that I was now going to have to use the new pads. Slider still frozen... I backed off for a bit to figure this out. As I was standing on the side, I happened to see the block of wood still wedged between foot brake and drivers peg. Doh!!! I removed that and went back to the slider and would you believe that it slid right out? Of course it did. There still was enough brake pad in my opinion to have gone a bit further before changing. So after doing the front set in rear caliper, I pulled the rear set and they came out real easy. Now the rear set was worn down significantly more and needed to be changed. Not sure why the front set wasn't as worn as the rear set but I felt better knowing. I took both sliders and sprayed them down real good and used a wire brush on them to make sure they were clean and smooth. Reassembly went just fine. I was able to use the shaft of a screwdriver between the pistons and rotor to push them back in. After the initial self induced trouble, I would have to say the most difficult thing was trying to get that cotter key back in. It's very tiny and needs to be put back in behind the inside pad which doesn't move much and the hole the key goes in really isn't visible. A little trial and error and I finally got it. Right side done and I moved over to the left side. The left was pretty uneventful as I now had a better understanding of how to do it. I discovered same thing as the right, front set still had some life in them but rear set was ready for a change. Not sure how these calipers work. None of the pistons were stuck and moved easily but obviously the rear set gets used more??? I had taken many trips hauling my Aspen camper over the years so I wasn't surprised to find the brakes needed to be changed. I though they would have needed to be done before this but I'm glad I thought ahead and had the replacements on hand.

I just find it strange that one set in a caliper could be worn down more than a second set. But this might partially explain why there are 4 separate brake pads on each caliper. And these are also fixed calipers and don't move unlike most disc brakes I'm used to. Each pad get its own dedicated piston so there are outside and inside pistons so no need for the caliper to move at all. Very interesting.

I always enjoy reading others adventures on repairs, You can always learn something from these, Maybe they rear calipers need bleeding ? thats why there wearing differently ? :xzqxz:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Try cleaning the caliper pistons, they may not be releasing all the way causing the wear

 

[pwhoever]

I always enjoy reading others adventures on repairs, You can always learn something from these, Maybe they rear calipers need bleeding ? thats why there wearing differently ? :xzqxz:

I bled them last spring when I installed speed bleeders. It would be easy enough to check that and rebleed them.