New Brake Shoes Locking Up 2004 Lehman Goldwing

Ray, have you ever had excess pressure in the LR brake after your test rides?

As a reminder, I adjusted both left & right sides one and a half revolutions each with gave me the same amount of drag. I just jacked up the trike above my car ramps to check rotation. The left side that's been locking up is rotating one full turn and a half which was my initial adjustment. Now the right side, I can hardly turn it. It's as if the brake is on but, not quite all the way. It's only affected by the foot brake and is not linked to the hand brake.

By cracking the bleeder loose has there been a good stream of fluid out?


When I bled them with the speed bleeder's it seemed to be the same flow. In fact, it seemed to be the same throughout the entire system front and back. Of course, with the right side be tight and under pressure, the fluid would probably shoot out.

This could be a defective wheel cylinder and or a master cylinder problem

What's your thoughts now with the current situation?

Do you have a proportioning valve and or a residual valve on the rear brakes?


Yes, although I can't visually see it. I would think that Lehman left the proportioning valve in place due to the linked system. It's located behind the left radiator. Hopefully, this isn't the problem due to having to removing the radiator and brake fluid. It doesn't appear to be too bad of a job but, brake fluid procedures in the service manual are for both front and rear calipers for the oem two wheeler.

Proportional Control Valve.jpg PCV.jpg

Many trikes use a rear residual check valve

Due to being oblivious.....LOL, I couldn't tell you if there is one or not. There isn't one in the Honda oem service manual. Both, the rear master cylinder which is located behind the right side cover and the secondary master cylinder located at the front wheel are easily accessible.


Rear Master Cylinder.jpg
 
Ok I've worked on cars all my life. I would never go beyond a point I knew wouldn't have any effect on my problem. Now unless you have abs there will be a single line that tees off to each rear brake. With out getting into splitting hairs brake fluid pressure will be the same at both wheel cylinders. If the right and left side have separate soft lines they may be a problem.

But here we go again replacing things that weren't broken in the first place.So to me the problem is something that was changed. You could try switching the left shoes with the right shoes, see if the problem goes to to the opposite side. You could switch wheel cylinders left to right. You're looking to get the problem to follow the component.
 
Ok I've worked on cars all my life. I would never go beyond a point I knew wouldn't have any effect on my problem. Now unless you have abs there will be a single line that tees off to each rear brake. With out getting into splitting hairs brake fluid pressure will be the same at both wheel cylinders. If the right and left side have separate soft lines they may be a problem. But here we go again replacing things that weren't broken in the first place.So to me the problem is something that was changed. You could try switching the left shoes with the right shoes, see if the problem goes to to the opposite side. You could switch wheel cylinders left to right. You're looking to get the problem to follow the component.

Mechanics, 101; When you didn’t have a problem but now you have a problem go back to the last thing you monkeyed with before you had the problem !…

Ie ; Occam’s Razor : AKA The law of Parsimony..
 
Ok I've worked on cars all my life. I would never go beyond a point I knew wouldn't have any effect on my problem. Now unless you have abs there will be a single line that tees off to each rear brake. With out getting into splitting hairs brake fluid pressure will be the same at both wheel cylinders. If the right and left side have separate soft lines they may be a problem. But here we go again replacing things that weren't broken in the first place.So to me the problem is something that was changed. You could try switching the left shoes with the right shoes, see if the problem goes to to the opposite side. You could switch wheel cylinders left to right. You're looking to get the problem to follow the component.

Thanks.... Non abs, just the standard oem linked system. Brake shoes, WC's, springs, adjusters, etc. were all the same parts as removed. I replaced everything that Lehman recommended and went off of their part numbers. For example, I did make sure that the shoes matched up to the old, springs matched up the same length and tension, etc. Appreciate the help. Ray 👍
 
Mechanics, 101; When you didn’t have a problem but now you have a problem go back to the last thing you monkeyed with before you had the problem !…

Ie ; Occam’s Razor : AKA The law of Parsimony..

Thanks..... Makes good sense. Unfortunately, I've done that three times over. Ray 👍
 
I would try a set of riveted shoes and genuine Wagner wheel cylinders, these are the common denominators to the problem also check the lr brake line for kinks

Thanks Jack.... With my bike high on jacks I visually checked over the brake lines yesterday. Some portions that are hidden above the axle and differential I viewed with a mirror the best I could. I also and felt the lines which appeared to be good without kinks. I haven't removed the wheels or backed off the brakes on the right side yet.

In regards to the wheel cylinders.... They're the same NAPA part number that I replced them with back in 2015 which matched lehman oem. I'm not saying they're not defective due to being new because we know new doesn't mean they're not. I took them apart earlier on and inspected the cups, seals, rubber and body which visually looked great. Only thing I didn't do was mic them simply due to not having the tool. I don't understand why they wouldn't retract when under pressure unless it's being held back by the MC.

I did look for the Wagner WC's on their site in which I couldn't find any. I used NAPA due to being Lehman oem. As for rivited shoes, Wagner WGB-Z474R & Raybestos 474PG with the Wagner's being on the lower priced end but, readily available on Amazon. One of these sets would be the third pair I've thrown at this new install. I'm willing to throw these parts into the mix but at this point, it appears to be a hydraulic issue.

I want to open each bleeder to check the stream of brake fluid as you suggested. Before doing so, please correct me if I'm wrong; Since the right side is under brake pressure, I wouldn't get an accurate reading for normal stream. If correct, I'll back off the right side giving it the same rotation/drag as the left and then check the stream. While performing this procedure, I'll have my wife do the pedal pump so I can check it closeup. Thanks again Jack! Ray ThumbUp
 
Thanks Jack.... With my bike high on jacks I visually checked over the brake lines yesterday. Some portions that are hidden above the axle and differential I viewed with a mirror the best I could. I also and felt the lines which appeared to be good without kinks. I haven't removed the wheels or backed off the brakes on the right side yet.

In regards to the wheel cylinders.... They're the same NAPA part number that I replced them with back in 2015 which matched lehman oem. I'm not saying they're not defective due to being new because we know new doesn't mean they're not. I took them apart earlier on and inspected the cups, seals, rubber and body which visually looked great. Only thing I didn't do was mic them simply due to not having the tool. I don't understand why they wouldn't retract when under pressure unless it's being held back by the MC.

I did look for the Wagner WC's on their site in which I couldn't find any. I used NAPA due to being Lehman oem. As for rivited shoes, Wagner WGB-Z474R & Raybestos 474PG with the Wagner's being on the lower priced end but, readily available on Amazon. One of these sets would be the third pair I've thrown at this new install. I'm willing to throw these parts into the mix but at this point, it appears to be a hydraulic issue.

I want to open each bleeder to check the stream of brake fluid as you suggested. Before doing so, please correct me if I'm wrong; Since the right side is under brake pressure, I wouldn't get an accurate reading for normal stream. If correct, I'll back off the right side giving it the same rotation/drag as the left and then check the stream. While performing this procedure, I'll have my wife do the pedal pump so I can check it closeup. Thanks again Jack! Ray ThumbUp

If the mater cylinder were the cause of the lock up both wheel cylinders should be affected, this happens most often as you are experiencing after riding a few miles, the master cylinder losses its free travel, on a rare occasion you may only get a big stream of fluid out of one bleeder
 
If the mater cylinder were the cause of the lock up both wheel cylinders should be affected, this happens most often as you are experiencing after riding a few miles, the master cylinder losses its free travel, on a rare occasion you may only get a big stream of fluid out of one bleeder

Thanks Jack for the explanation. I want to open each bleeder to check the stream of brake fluid as you suggested. Before doing so, please correct me if I'm wrong; Since the right side is under brake pressure, I wouldn't get an accurate reading for normal stream. If correct, I'll back off the right side giving it the same rotation/drag as the left and then check the stream. While performing this procedure, I'll have my wife do the pedal pump so I can check it closeup. Thanks again again, appreciate it. Ray
 
Thanks Jack for the explanation. I want to open each bleeder to check the stream of brake fluid as you suggested. Before doing so, please correct me if I'm wrong; Since the right side is under brake pressure, I wouldn't get an accurate reading for normal stream. If correct, I'll back off the right side giving it the same rotation/drag as the left and then check the stream. While performing this procedure, I'll have my wife do the pedal pump so I can check it closeup. Thanks again again, appreciate it. Ray

Yes, try to get about the same drag on both wheels if you can
 
If the mater cylinder were the cause of the lock up both wheel cylinders should be affected, this happens most often as you are experiencing after riding a few miles, the master cylinder losses its free travel, on a rare occasion you may only get a big stream of fluid out of one bleeder

Adjusted both rear wheels equally to one and a half revolutions with drag. I opened/closed one speed bleeder at a time checking the left first and then the right. I visually checked the fluid stream as well as measuring it. Pumped the brakes with the foot pedal ten times per side. Each side equaled exactly one ounce. I can't find any Wagner wheel cylinders including their site.... (Headbang)
 
Adjusted both rear wheels equally to one and a half revolutions with drag. I opened/closed one speed bleeder at a time checking the left first and then the right. I visually checked the fluid stream as well as measuring it. Pumped the brakes with the foot pedal ten times per side. Each side equaled exactly one ounce. I can't find any Wagner wheel cylinders including their site.... (Headbang)

It is possible after riding some miles the master cylinder is the problem, I would attempt a rebuild kit( provided 1 is available and the bore is not badly scored)

I do not see what you have done with your meticulous work as being the problem, it seems more like a fluke in the hydraulic cylinder
 
It is possible after riding some miles the master cylinder is the problem, I would attempt a rebuild kit( provided 1 is available and the bore is not badly scored)

I do not see what you have done with your meticulous work as being the problem, it seems more like a fluke in the hydraulic cylinder

Thanks Jack.... I totally agree with your statement. I'll take a look into a MC rebuild kit but, it's Honda. I'll also take a look at how $$$ they want for a new one. Thanks again. 👍
 
Thanks Jack.... I totally agree with your statement. I'll take a look into a MC rebuild kit but, it's Honda. I'll also take a look at how $$$ they want for a new one. Thanks again. 👍

Honda Parts basically has a rear brake MC rebuild kit #12 and #5 as a complete assembly (link below). I'm not sure if the main body comes with the assembly due to not having an assigned number in the schematic. It should, simply due to the price difference of #12. Removal seems to be somewhat of a chore and of course, the entire system has to be bled out. As you know, the bad thing is that this is a guessing game moving forward due to the following inline parts as well. Up front at the front wheel calipers, there is a Secondary MC that's linked to the rear MC. Plus, there is a Proportional Control Valve (PCV) that's linked to the rear as well. I'm assuming, the rear MC would take precedence over the other parts. Thanks again Jack! Ray

:shout::Depressed:

Master Cylinder:

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/5053ec8ef870021c54be4386/rear-brake-master-cylinder

Honda OEM Standard Brake System.jpg



 
If the bypass port in the master is covered or clogged it can cause the wheels to lock. But cracking a brake bleeder will temporarily make the problem go away.

Thanks Bill..... I didn't think of trying to rotate the right wheel with the bleeder cracked open.... That was the first time a wheel actually stayed somewhat locked. I backed off the brakes on the right with my adjuster and then started the stream/measure test on the left rear followed by the right due to the bleeding sequence. If it does it again, I'll crack the bleeder first then try to rotate. Sounds like that would be a sign of the MC having issues as you stated. Thanks again, appreciate it. Ray 👍
 
I know I am late to the party, been blowing by this thread, Anyway, when I had my 2006 Goldwing with Hannigan Kit (disc brakes). I had a problem somewhat like yours, rear brakes locking up. Chased it for two weeks doing basically the same you and finally replaced the Master Cylinder. Problem was resolved! Never had another problem up to the day I traded it. Just my $0.02.
 
I know I am late to the party, been blowing by this thread, Anyway, when I had my 2006 Goldwing with Hannigan Kit (disc brakes). I had a problem somewhat like yours, rear brakes locking up. Chased it for two weeks doing basically the same you and finally replaced the Master Cylinder. Problem was resolved! Never had another problem up to the day I traded it. Just my $0.02.

Thank you Pat! I'm just about to the point of replacing the MC. My biggest hesitation is that the brake system was all good prior to this job. I thought I was performing some great pre-maintenance since I was changing out my tires. Yes, I'm old enough to know "If it's not broke, don't fix it.".... (Swearing) The only thing I haven't changed out twice is my new NAPA wheel cylinders. Earlier on, I did take them apart as suggested by fellow members here. Visually, everything looked great and felt great as I was lubing them up with brake fluid putting them back together. With that being said, they were an exact NAPA replacement WC's when I did my brake job back in 2015.

I do realize just because they're new, it doesn't necessarly mean that they're good. I woke up this morning thinking of changing them out along with bleeding the entire system over again as one more ditch effort. It's also been suggested here to use rivited shoes due to being much better than non-rivited in which I totally agree. For the price, I could do the WC's and shoes once again for about $100.00 plus fluid.

If that doesn't work, the MC will definitely be my next move. At this stage, one becomes a little paranoid..... LOL. I'm really glad you jumped in to let me know your solution. It's even more re-assuring that the MC is likely to be the culprit. Thanks again, appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp
 
Thank you Pat! I'm just about to the point of replacing the MC. My biggest hesitation is that the brake system was all good prior to this job. I thought I was performing some great pre-maintenance since I was changing out my tires. Yes, I'm old enough to know "If it's not broke, don't fix it.".... (Swearing) The only thing I haven't changed out twice is my new NAPA wheel cylinders. Earlier on, I did take them apart as suggested by fellow members here. Visually, everything looked great and felt great as I was lubing them up with brake fluid putting them back together. With that being said, they were an exact NAPA replacement WC's when I did my brake job back in 2015. I do realize just because they're new, it doesn't necessarly mean that they're good. I woke up this morning thinking of changing them out along with bleeding the entire system over again as one more ditch effort. It's also been suggested here to use rivited shoes due to being much better than non-rivited in which I totally agree. For the price, I could do the WC's and shoes once again for about $100.00 plus fluid. If that doesn't work, the MC will definitely be my next move. At this stage, one becomes a little paranoid..... LOL. I'm really glad you jumped in to let me know your solution. It's even more re-assuring that the MC is likely to be the culprit. Thanks again, appreciate it. Ray ThumbUp

Like you I did everything else but. Rebuilt calipers, chased lines and replaced brakes twice. I just got fed up with it and decided what the hell I'll replace the MC. Well behold, that was the problem. I wish you the best of luck!
 
It is possible after riding some miles the master cylinder is the problem, I would attempt a rebuild kit( provided 1 is available and the bore is not badly scored)

I do not see what you have done with your meticulous work as being the problem, it seems more like a fluke in the hydraulic cylinder

Thanks again Jack.... I went ahead and ordered a new MS assembly. I won't get it until the end of next week due to not finding one in stock. It was confirmed that Honda has them in stock. After you mentioning some trikes having residual check valves, I've been digging into it. I do have one that's a P.I.A. to get to located centrally above my swingarm.... Next to impossible to take apart if needed due to not being able to get two hands in the tight space.

I.M.O., installer should have routed it closer to the frame for accessibility. The only Lehman part number I could come up with for the valve only has an 1/8" inlet/outlet, mine is around 3/8". Plus, similiar check valves have psi ratings. I'm sure it matters but, I have no idea of what the pressure would be on my lines. It may be hard to match up if I need to replace it, hopefully I won't. In addition, there is another junction that appears to be brass on top of the upper left side axle.

I believe it's nothing more than a junction for the lines. I'll take a closer look once I get the wheels off for further brake inspection. Below is a short YT clip of the RCV and the brass junction. Thanks again and have an awesome Labor Day Weekend!! Ray ThumbUp

 
If the brass junction looks like this is a street T to connect the line from the master to the rear wheel cylinder lines

11910603_dmn_785436d_alt2_pri_thmb.jpg
 
Like you I did everything else but. Rebuilt calipers, chased lines and replaced brakes twice. I just got fed up with it and decided what the hell I'll replace the MC. Well behold, that was the problem. I wish you the best of luck!

Yep! I'm at that point..... Very frustrating to say the least. Glad to hear that you got on top of it!! Thank you....I need all the Luck I can get...LOL. ThumbUp :cxtv::help:
 
OK...... I'm back. I had to play catch up on other things...LOL! I do have my new rear brake MC and plan on replacing the old one over the weekend. Other than my Honda shop manual, I've been looking for the best procedure to move forward. Shop manual want's you to drain all the brake fluid from the entire hydraulic system with a commercial brake bleeder.

This is something I don't have, or have ever done. I've always bled my brakes using the manual procedure. One thing for sure is that all the fluid in my hydraulic system is fresh. With that being said, and Please correct me if I'm wrong, I can skip this part.

In regards to the Secondary MC, this was replaced along with the rear brake MC back during the recall. I've never bled the SMC by removing the banjo bolts.... Never saw or heard that it was necessary for the bleeding process therefore, I've never touched it. Same goes for the rear brake MC.

My plan moving forward is to remove the fluid out of my rear brake MC cup and replace the rear MC. As far as I know, the new rear brake MC doesn't need to be taken apart and pre-lubricated. Once installed, I'll followup by going through the manual brake bleeding procedure steps.

Having speed bleeder's helps with this procedure but, I will have my wife at the pedal in order for me to visually inspect for air in the line as I proceed as before. I'd like to add, I'm debating about bleeding the front hand brakes as well but, it shouldn't be necessary since I've done it a couple times during this entire ordeal.

If anyone here has anything to add, suggest or feel that I need to proceed differently, PLEASE do so. I sincerely value and appreciate your help! Thanks. Ray ThumbUp
 
You have a sound plan IMO

You have already bled the rear brakes several times so there should be plenty of new fluid already in the lines and rear wheel cylinders, I think just bench bleed the new rear master, install it and bleed @ the rear wheel cylinders and ride it

Remember to tell your wife slow pumps of the pedal , no more than 1/2 strokes when bleeding the brakes
 
You have a sound plan IMO

You have already bled the rear brakes several times so there should be plenty of new fluid already in the lines and rear wheel cylinders, I think just bench bleed the new rear master, install it and bleed @ the rear wheel cylinders and ride it

Remember to tell your wife slow pumps of the pedal , no more than 1/2 strokes when bleeding the brakes

Thank You Jack.... I'll be sure she goes slow with the pedal. Before, I went full slow strokes on the pedal but, I'll go ahead and go with 1/2 as as you stated. Also, even though I'm using speed bleeders, I had her push/hold the pedal down on the final stroke before tightening each bleeder last time. As always, Thank You for your help! Appreciate it!! Ray ThumbUp
 

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