H-D 120R Engine - New or not?

[eighty80]

I hope I didn't make you nervous? If so, that wasn't my intent. I think you made a good choice in getting the ST instead of the R.

Just remember, it will be a different motor than what you had, but in a good way.

Ride it and enjoy it. I wish I could ride my Trike more.

What TQ numbers did they show you? Just curious on the ST.

I got a naked pic around here too. I'll see if I can find it?

eighty80.

 

[3rdwheel]

The torque was between 125-130 if I remember correctly (2 wheels)
My nervousness is just "did I do the right thing" since no information is out there for this engine in trikes.

 

[geezerglide11441]

The torque was between 125-130 if I remember correctly (2 wheels)
My nervousness is just "did I do the right thing" since no information is out there for this engine in trikes.

3rdwheel, relax you are going to love the 120st!! I like the fact they dumbed down the cams and also are providing a throttle body and injectors, which was not included with the 120r! However, my concern would be the valve spring pressure, which I believe has contributed to some of the lifter failures the 120r has experienced. The difference in the cams (SE 266E in the 120r and the SE 259E in the 120st) makes a world of difference in the street manners.

It will not produce the same hp/tq numbers as the 120r, but it will be a substantial improvement that you will love.

Roger

 

[clint44]

How much does a 120ST cost from H-D?

 

[3rdwheel]

How much does a 120ST cost from H-D?

I think $5,695 is the list price. That doesn't include about 9 hours of install time or other issues they may bill for. Dyno would also be an add on. Oil change at 1,000 miles, not sure if that is part of the deal. They also "suggest" an oil change at 500 miles.

 

[msocko3]

I think $5,695 is the list price. That doesn't include about 9 hours of install time or other issues they may bill for. Dyno would also be an add on. Oil change at 1,000 miles, not sure if that is part of the deal. They also "suggest" an oil change at 500 miles.

Don't forget an upgraded clutch, the stock clutch won't be up to the task.

- - - Updated - - -

In the post by msocko3 it states that the 120st is not compatible with twin cooled bikes/trikes.

Does that mean that I have to sit on the sidelines and watch you guys have all the fun? Or is there a solution for getting more displacement from my '14 103" motor? - Russ

You can make your present 103 larger, it all depends on how big you want to go and how much money you're looking to spend. You can have your present 103 built to 120 or 124 if that is what you want. They can bore your present engine cases to accept larger cylinders and port your water heads.

 

[Texan]

Kinda curious.... couple 3-4 years ago was at the Harley display in Sturgis looking at all the new bikes and stuff. Course this was before the dealers got their panties in a wad at HD for showing their new stuff at Sturgis before they got to see it. I was visiting with an HD engineer about a 120R and a 120H (hurricane) motors sitting on display. ????? wonder what happened to the 120H ??? Wonder if it was just a proto to get feedback. Have ask my buddies that were with me and they said "he called it a 120H" so I wasn't dreaming and I don't drink. Have googled it and nothing.

8~\o

 

[fuelmoto]

Jamie,can you give us a rough estimate of the cost to build a 120ci trike motor that would offer mondo bottom & midrange torque?

It all really depends on what the user is looking for. Besides our extremely popular 107 kits another popular combo would be a 117 build which uses 4.375 crank (which we would have built by Darkhorse), our FM 117 Sport kit runs $4995 installed & tuned. It would also require a larger TB & injectors, an intake & exhaust that will support this build, an upgraded clutch, and the appropriate tuning product. We offer many options and when we do a build we see it thru start to finish. We also have some really cool new stuff that we will be releasing engine wise next month so stay tuned.

 

[msocko3]

Kinda curious.... couple 3-4 years ago was at the Harley display in Sturgis looking at all the new bikes and stuff. Course this was before the dealers got their panties in a wad at HD for showing their new stuff at Sturgis before they got to see it. I was visiting with an HD engineer about a 120R and a 120H (hurricane) motors sitting on display. ????? wonder what happened to the 120H ??? Wonder if it was just a proto to get feedback. Have ask my buddies that were with me and they said "he called it a 120H" so I wasn't dreaming and I don't drink. Have googled it and nothing.

8~\o

HD still offers the hurricane heads and the cam for the package, you either build your own engine or upgrade the 120R.

 

[Steve Cole]

One needs to remember a few key rules. I do not care who your getting it from it applies to them ALL! If going with a big power build (115+ hp) is the rest of the system going to take it............. NO! So cost is going to go up as you ride and other parts fail and need replacing, so there is a continuing cost after the first out lay.

Second, where is it that you plan to ride and how.......... many states no longer have gasoline and high octane to support these large power builds. The best you can get is 10% ethanol and 90 octane in many places and there is even a few that best you can get is 89 octane. 15% ethanol is becoming much more common and requires different tuning and the power drops as the ethanol content goes up! So are you willing to watch where you go and do what's necessary on the road?

Third, the trike is typically running around with 300 -500 pounds more weight than a normal touring bike so it's going to be running hotter due to the extra load and with a big power build fuel economy goes down the $hitter.

So figuring all this in up front, will save the surprises down the road. If it's not what you are willing to do, then adjust, what you think you want/expect from any build.

Going from a 103 to a 106 or 107 doesn't buy you squat other than being able to say mines bigger than yours, but , along with that you get thinner cylinders! You need to jump to 110 or more to get into the next larger cylinders to start with, then you start it over again with 113, 117 ect. until you get to the 120.

Pick your poison well up front or get Stung later!

 

[msocko3]

One needs to remember a few key rules. I do not care who your getting it from it applies to them ALL! If going with a big power build (115+ hp) is the rest of the system going to take it............. NO! So cost is going to go up as you ride and other parts fail and need replacing, so there is a continuing cost after the first out lay.

Second, where is it that you plan to ride and how.......... many states no longer have gasoline and high octane to support these large power builds. The best you can get is 10% ethanol and 90 octane in many places and there is even a few that best you can get is 89 octane. 15% ethanol is becoming much more common and requires different tuning and the power drops as the ethanol content goes up! So are you willing to watch where you go and do what's necessary on the road?

Third, the trike is typically running around with 300 -500 pounds more weight than a normal touring bike so it's going to be running hotter due to the extra load and with a big power build fuel economy goes down the $hitter.

So figuring all this in up front, will save the surprises down the road. If it's not what you are willing to do, then adjust, what you think you want/expect from any build. Going from a 103 to a 106 or 107 doesn't buy you squat other than being able to say mines bigger than yours, but , along with that you get thinner cylinders! You need to jump to 110 or more to get into the next larger cylinders to start with, then you start it over again with 113, 117 ect. until you get to the 120.

Pick your poison well up front or get Stung later!

Some very sound advice, some of the reasons I kept my dads 09 Triglide at 103" when I rebuilt the top end this past winter.

 

[clint44]

I think I'm going to stay with our 103",also. If I can get it to put out around 85hp/100tq w/o sacrificing daily driveability,that should be plenty.

 

[Gorilla]

I think I'm going to stay with our 103",also. If I can get it to put out around 85hp/100tq w/o sacrificing daily driveability,that should be plenty.

Actually a 103 with a good set of cams and a good tune can easily provide you with those numbers.

 

[Texan]

Actually a 103 with a good set of cams and a good tune can easily provide you with those numbers.

Agree !!
Put a set of S&S 557 in my 103 and it's made a great difference.

8~\o

 

[msocko3]

Actually a 103 with a good set of cams and a good tune can easily provide you with those numbers.

:Agree: I think a the TTS-100 cam is perfect for a trike. If I wouldn't have had all the parts for my dads trike when I freshened up the top end and had some head ported, I would have had him move to that cam.

 

[Gorilla]

I love the TTS-100 cams in my 110 TRI

 

[Texan]

HD still offers the hurricane heads and the cam for the package, you either build your own engine or upgrade the 120R.

Ahhhhhhh I'm not crazy. Thanks for the info....

8~\o

 

[55il]

I signed in as a new member last night and received this address from Clint.

I live in Il. which is pretty much flat land. My 2011 Tri Glide with the 103eng, port/polished heads, true duel exhaust w/Rinehart mufflers, Comander 5, H-D tuneup module and 255 cam is just ok.

Last year I put 3500 miles on completing a western trip and this year 7110 mile trip to the west coast. I'm very disappointed in the performance.

I'm thinking of upgrading the 103 to either the Screaming Eagle kit or the H-D 120st. I don't need top end, just more ump to get up long straight away hills out west. Realize, I travel their only once or twice a year. But constantly shifting from 6th to 5th to 4th and back again is really irritating. doing this I will crank it up to ~45k rpms before shifting into another gear maintaining a speed between 70-80 mph.

will I be disappointed? Will the engine and drive train be reliable? How many have done this?

Sorry for the long thread, Thanks in advance, DJ

 

[Trent]

You might be happy with the simple change of the cam to the 259E.

 

[55il]

You might be happy with the simple change of the cam to the 259E.

Trent, I am not a motor guy at all but this might help. Thanks DJ

 

[Gorilla]

Do some reading on here. You need a cam that makes low end torque. I have TTS-100 cams in mine and love the low end torque. The true dual took a little away so you might want to get some back pressure to get it back. A good tune is necessary also.

 

[Trent]

Trent, I am not a motor guy at all but this might help. Thanks DJ

I had the 255 in mine before I did the full stage 4. The 259E works very well for me in all kinds of riding situations here in Idaho... Steep mountain grades, twisties, whatever.. No complaints from me about bottom end or top end.

 

[55il]

You might be happy with the simple change of the cam to the 259E.

I have to open up this motor anyway. On my last trip, in the middle of KS to CO oil was blowing out the breather. So bad that oil was all over the right side including paint leg, boots, etc. When I arrived in Colorado Springs, CO. late afternoon. I spoke with the service manager about my issue he in turn brought out two motor mechanics for assistance. I thought it was due to the breather tubes under the valve covers. They said they would replace them but the real problem was H-D uses silicon to seal the lower cases. And a piece is blocking the crankcase breather tube. Engine needs to be disassembled cleaned and put back together.

Well, I wrapped a dipper around the back half of my Screaming Eagle air filter and road the rest of my trip with lots of oil and gas in the trunk. Finished the trip a little oily but got home.

This winter the engine, exhaust, cams or maybe a Streaming Eagle 110 upgrade.... or 120st change out is in order. I have a lot to learn before teardown. Thanks for all the information. DJ

 

[msocko3]

I have to open up this motor anyway. On my last trip, in the middle of KS to CO oil was blowing out the breather. So bad that oil was all over the right side including paint leg, boots, etc. When I arrived in Colorado Springs, CO. late afternoon. I spoke with the service manager about my issue he in turn brought out two motor mechanics for assistance. I thought it was due to the breather tubes under the valve covers. They said they would replace them but the real problem was H-D uses silicon to seal the lower cases. And a piece is blocking the crankcase breather tube. Engine needs to be disassembled cleaned and put back together. Well, I wrapped a dipper around the back half of my Screaming Eagle air filter and road the rest of my trip with lots of oil and gas in the trunk. Finished the trip a little oily but got home. This winter the engine, exhaust, cams or maybe a Streaming Eagle 110 upgrade.... or 120st change out is in order. I have a lot to learn before teardown. Thanks for all the information. DJ

That is the 1st I've ever heard of that, I get this feeling someone is blowing smoke up your back side. Normally when they start passing a lot of oil out of the breathers its one or a few things. It could be a bad flapper valve located in the rocker box on top of the rocker support. It could be higher than normal engine oil level, someone put to much in. The scavenge side of the oil pump could be damaged which is causing excess oil to remain in the sump. Sumping can cause excess heat and sluggish performance. It could be excess leak down on one or both cylinders due excess wear on the piston rings. You can diagnose excess leak down by doing a leak down test.

This past winter I just freshened the top end on my dads 09 Triglide with 50,000 miles on it at the time. The leak down on the rear cylinder was <10% and it was blowing oil out the breather. This year with a fresh top end, he has no more oil being blown out.

If you want to stay 103 and try to get a little more torque, you have some options. True duals are not your friend when it comes to low end torque, exhaust can make a build a hero or a zero. True dual shift the torque up higher in the rpm range, which is the last thing you want on a heavy trike.

Cam, the TTS-100 cam is a good choice to increase your bottom end torque, as Gorilla pointed out. I would steer clear of the SE259 cams, unless you're willing to bump the compression up to 10.5:1. That cam has a pretty late intake close which will make the engine soft on the bottom end unless you bump the compression to help get the bottom end back.

The 120ST has been looking pretty decent, only problem is it comes with shitty lifters. I'd deep 6 those suckers in favor of a set of S&S premium lifters right before the 1 year warranty ran out. Obviously if you go larger on the engine, you will need to address other things such as the clutch. The stock clutch and spring won't cut it when hit with the greater low end torque of the 120ST, even just the 103 with a low end torque cam cries out for a clutch upgrade.

You could also build your present engine larger, 117, 120, 124, if would like to stick with your stock cases.

 

[55il]

That is the 1st I've ever heard of that, I get this feeling someone is blowing smoke up your back side. Normally when they start passing a lot of oil out of the breathers its one or a few things. It could be a bad flapper valve located in the rocker box on top of the rocker support. It could be higher than normal engine oil level, someone put to much in. The scavenge side of the oil pump could be damaged which is causing excess oil to remain in the sump. Sumping can cause excess heat and sluggish performance. It could be excess leak down on one or both cylinders due excess wear on the piston rings. You can diagnose excess leak down by doing a leak down test.

This past winter I just freshened the top end on my dads 09 Triglide with 50,000 miles on it at the time. The leak down on the rear cylinder was <10% and it was blowing oil out the breather. This year with a fresh top end, he has no more oil being blown out.

If you want to stay 103 and try to get a little more torque, you have some options. True duals are not your friend when it comes to low end torque, exhaust can make a build a hero or a zero. True dual shift the torque up higher in the rpm range, which is the last thing you want on a heavy trike.

Cam, the TTS-100 cam is a good choice to increase your bottom end torque, as Gorilla pointed out. I would steer clear of the SE259 cams, unless you're willing to bump the compression up to 10.5:1. That cam has a pretty late intake close which will make the engine soft on the bottom end unless you bump the compression to help get the bottom end back.

The 120ST has been looking pretty decent, only problem is it comes with shitty lifters. I'd deep 6 those suckers in favor of a set of S&S premium lifters right before the 1 year warranty ran out. Obviously if you go larger on the engine, you will need to address other things such as the clutch. The stock clutch and spring won't cut it when hit with the greater low end torque of the 120ST, even just the 103 with a low end torque cam cries out for a clutch upgrade.

You could also build your present engine larger, 117, 120, 124, if would like to stick with your stock cases.

Msocko3; Lot of good information and it is much appreciated. The oil issue was brought up talking with the H-D motor tech's in CO. Only 3-12 qtrs. last oil change before my trip but the book says 4 qtrs. with oil filter. I had the oil changed at 4400 miles in Carson City, NV. I told the tec. add only 3 qtrs. on oil change and give me 1 to go and this is how I finished the trip, yes, the engine stayed in tact. It didn't matter as oil still come out of the air cleaner (lot less).

As I previously stated, I'm not a motor guy. Last year I upgraded to a 255 cam at the suggestion of the local H-D Tec. He said they have had better luck with the 255 cam than the 225. Is the TTS-100 cam from SS?

Also, I was told with true duals and Rinehart Racing mufflers, power commander 5 with H-D tuner would be the cats meow. Well that obviously didn't work either.

You mentioned upgrade my engine to a 117,120 or124, is this SS or H-D kits?
Again thanks for the information.

When I mentioned, possibly, replacing the 103 to the 120st was for more power (torque/horsepower and not racing speeds. Also, my concern with the 120st isn't all the additional upgrades, as you mentioned clutch, etc., but the additional heat it will put out.

It would be nice if a shop could dyno the engine.
Again thanks for the post as I'm learning a lot. DJ

 

[RickDeVon]

Overflow of oil fixed...

 

[geezerglide11441]

That is the 1st I've ever heard of that, I get this feeling someone is blowing smoke up your back side. Normally when they start passing a lot of oil out of the breathers its one or a few things. It could be a bad flapper valve located in the rocker box on top of the rocker support. It could be higher than normal engine oil level, someone put to much in. The scavenge side of the oil pump could be damaged which is causing excess oil to remain in the sump. Sumping can cause excess heat and sluggish performance. It could be excess leak down on one or both cylinders due excess wear on the piston rings. You can diagnose excess leak down by doing a leak down test.

This past winter I just freshened the top end on my dads 09 Triglide with 50,000 miles on it at the time. The leak down on the rear cylinder was <10% and it was blowing oil out the breather. This year with a fresh top end, he has no more oil being blown out.

If you want to stay 103 and try to get a little more torque, you have some options. True duals are not your friend when it comes to low end torque, exhaust can make a build a hero or a zero. True dual shift the torque up higher in the rpm range, which is the last thing you want on a heavy trike.

Cam, the TTS-100 cam is a good choice to increase your bottom end torque, as Gorilla pointed out. I would steer clear of the SE259 cams, unless you're willing to bump the compression up to 10.5:1. That cam has a pretty late intake close which will make the engine soft on the bottom end unless you bump the compression to help get the bottom end back.

The 120ST has been looking pretty decent, only problem is it comes with shitty lifters. I'd deep 6 those suckers in favor of a set of S&S premium lifters right before the 1 year warranty ran out. Obviously if you go larger on the engine, you will need to address other things such as the clutch. The stock clutch and spring won't cut it when hit with the greater low end torque of the 120ST, even just the 103 with a low end torque cam cries out for a clutch upgrade.

You could also build your present engine larger, 117, 120, 124, if would like to stick with your stock cases.

:Agree: 100%!! Well laid out and great information for a newbie!! OP would do well to heed this information!!

Roger

 

[Gorilla]

TTS -100 cams are from TTS Inc out of Compton Ca.

Those are S&S kits

 

[msocko3]

You mentioned upgrade my engine to a 117,120 or124, is this SS or H-D kits?
Again thanks for the information.

When I mentioned, possibly, replacing the 103 to the 120st was for more power (torque/horsepower and not racing speeds. Also, my concern with the 120st isn't all the additional upgrades, as you mentioned clutch, etc., but the additional heat it will put out.

It would be nice if a shop could dyno the engine.
Again thanks for the post as I'm learning a lot. DJ

You can source and build a 117, 120 or 124 from many vendors. You can send your engine cases to someone like Dark Horse crank works and have them bore the spigots of your cases to accept larger cylinders and build you a new crank to the stroke needed to achieve the CI from the bore you have chosen. For example a 4 5/8 stroke crank and a 4.060 bore will give you a 120. To help keep things simple, you can source packages from vendors such as http://tmanperformance.com/ or http://www.fuelmotousa.com/.

There are many ways to deal with the increased heat a large CI engine puts out. A good oil cooler and fans, both on the cooler and blowing on the heads. We have a member here on TT FLTR2008TRIKE who is running a 124 in his trike, you can shoot him a PM for his guidance on cooling issues with a big engine.

When you start getting into bigger builds, a dyno is a must. You don't want to build a larger CI engine and break it in on some close enough is good enough map. You also want to go to a flash tuner such as the TTS or Powervision, vs the PCV. The flash tuners offer many more fine tuning options than a piggy back tuner such as the PCV does.

 

[55il]

You can source and build a 117, 120 or 124 from many vendors. You can send your engine cases to someone like Dark Horse crank works and have them bore the spigots of your cases to accept larger cylinders and build you a new crank to the stroke needed to achieve the CI from the bore you have chosen. For example a 4 5/8 stroke crank and a 4.060 bore will give you a 120. To help keep things simple, you can source packages from vendors such as http://tmanperformance.com/ or http://www.fuelmotousa.com/.

There are many ways to deal with the increased heat a large CI engine puts out. A good oil cooler and fans, both on the cooler and blowing on the heads. We have a member here on TT FLTR2008TRIKE who is running a 124 in his trike, you can shoot him a PM for his guidance on cooling issues with a big engine.

When you start getting into bigger builds, a dyno is a must. You don't want to build a larger CI engine and break it in on some close enough is good enough map. You also want to go to a flash tuner such as the TTS or Powervision, vs the PCV. The flash tuners offer many more fine tuning options than a piggy back tuner such as the PCV does.

msocko3; Wow, you have offered a lot of good information for me to look into. Again, Thanks for all the help. DJ