Transmission Problem??

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

I think I already know the answer.

Ever since I have owned this 2004 Road King, changing the transmission oil always revealed some silver stuff mixed in the oil, with the plug magnet coated with the same stuff. Just today, I changed it and now I have little bits of metal shavings in there too, and the magnet is well coated. The shavings are very small, almost not visible but you can see them sticking out from the magnet as I try to wipe it off with a rag, and one was big enough to pick out with my fingernail. It looked like a very small needle bearing, was about 1/16" long and about as thick as a bristle from a toothbrush.

I have used every type of oil from Harley's "best the world has ever seen" transmission lube, to Harley 20-50 synthetic, to bargain brand, to just now Mobil 1 V-twin 20-50 synthetic. I always get this silver stuff on the magnet, only now it appears worse.

Any words of encouragement??

 

[msocko3]

I think I already know the answer.

Ever since I have owned this 2004 Road King, changing the transmission oil always revealed some silver stuff mixed in the oil, with the plug magnet coated with the same stuff. Just today, I changed it and now I have little bits of metal shavings in there too, and the magnet is well coated. The shavings are very small, almost not visible but you can see them sticking out from the magnet as I try to wipe it off with a rag, and one was big enough to pick out with my fingernail. It looked like a very small needle bearing, was about 1/16" long and about as thick as a bristle from a toothbrush.

I have used every type of oil from Harley's "best the world has ever seen" transmission lube, to Harley 20-50 synthetic, to bargain brand, to just now Mobil 1 V-twin 20-50 synthetic. I always get this silver stuff on the magnet, only now it appears worse.

Any words of encouragement??

Its possible your throwout bearing took a dump, the needle bearings in it are very small. You'll have to pop the exhaust off so you can pull the transmission side cover to inspect the throwout bearing, it sits on top of the oil slinger. I used to get the metallic fuzzies on my drain plugs when I was running Syn3. When I switched to Redline Shockproof Heavy the fuzzies went away and never come back.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

That's pretty much what happened when I changed to Shock Proof.

Before I made the change I had a rule... If the junk on the magnet wouldn't pass through a window screen then you have a problem. If the metal shavings were melted down and made into a ball and this ball was the size of a BB or larger then you have a problem. If you lift the rear wheel off the ground and let the clutch out in first gear with the motor at idle then listen to the right side tranny case and hear Rice Crispy's... you have a problem.

Any thing less than the above... air in your hair, lets go for a ride.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Its possible your throwout bearing took a dump, the needle bearings in it are very small. You'll have to pop the exhaust off so you can pull the transmission side cover to inspect the throwout bearing, it sits on top of the oil slinger. I used to get the metallic fuzzies on my drain plugs when I was running Syn3. When I switched to Redline Shockproof Heavy the fuzzies went away and never come back.

+1 agree. Those thrust bearings are small and do wear out over time

 

[eagle1]

get the feb-mar edition of AIM. they did a good troubleshooting on your problem
seems i can't cut & paste it.i have AIM on-line $12.00 yr.i've got a article, but am still looking for it.

 

[eagle1]

Interesting bearing failure artice on 6 speeds

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While searching the Internet to learn what makes the baker 6 speed, how it is made and researching bearing failures, I ran across this article. Thought I would throw it out here to hear other people thoughts on this.

Dr. Chaos Service Bulletin #26 speed transmission bearing failure.

There has have been numerous reports on trap door bearings and the main shaft main ball bearing going bad prematurely on six speed transmissions on all makes. I have personally seen bearing damage and main shaft bending from the Rev Tech 6 speeds. I've also heard from very reliable sources that Baker and yes even Harley has have had trouble with their six speed transmission bearings. The next sentence is not entirely accurate but will suffice for this discussion. The six speed transmission uses pretty much the same design as the proven 5 speed design only with an extra gear. The problem is, is with the main shaft and the fact that the clutch pack is mounted so far away from the shaft support which is the main shaft ball bearing. The main shaft and the clutch pack is unsupported at the end. The clutch pack hangs off the end of the shaft and is flexed back and forth by the torque of the engine.

The tightness of the primary chain and the secondary drive belt also contribute to stress on the main shaft bearing, which then this transfers the force to the trap door bearings. This unsupported main shaft design was adequate with a 50 or 60 hp engine putting out low torque numbers. With the recent trend in high HP and high torque engines and ever increasing and cheap affordable cubic inch upgrades, like for the Twin Cam (95 cu in.). T the 5 -speed transmission is meeting its design limits. Remember the stock 5 speed transmission in 5th gear is a 1 to 1 ratio, which turns the rear wheel one revolution for every full revolution of the engine. Now enter the 6 speed transmission with a final drive ratio in 6th gear of .83 to .89 (overdrive). Which means the rear wheel turns only .83 to .89 (roughly) of a revolution while the engine turns one complete revolution. This means that there is a lot more torque being transmitted to the unsupported main shaft with the same clutch basket hanging off of the unsupported end of the shaft. What this does is stress out the main shaft bearings and the trap door bearings prematurely before their time causing transmission failure or at the very least an early rebuild. I have seen 6 speed transmissions from every major manufacturer needing bearing overhaul around the 20,000 to 30,000 mile range.

Which is way too early! I think there is something we can do to slow down this process considerably. I think we are riding these 6 speeds all wrong (me included). I think we are accelerating far too often in 6th gear and not down shifting to 5th gear as we should. We do this because we can. We now have so much more torque with these more powerful engines that we can accelerate in 6th gear without downshifting. I believe This is the problem. If we do all our accelerating in 5th gear, then once we reach cruising speed, then and only then shift into 6th for cruising. That way no excess torque is placed on the unsupported main shaft and our aftermarket transmissions will and should last longer. Just my two cents.

also some say that if when you remove the clutch cover & there is gray muck at the bottom this is a sign that the bearing is going out.i'm still trying to find that article.

__________________

 

[eighty80]

Its possible your throwout bearing took a dump, the needle bearings in it are very small. You'll have to pop the exhaust off so you can pull the transmission side cover to inspect the throwout bearing, it sits on top of the oil slinger. I used to get the metallic fuzzies on my drain plugs when I was running Syn3. When I switched to Redline Shockproof Heavy the fuzzies went away and never come back.

Interesting, so when you switched from syn3 to redline shockproof, did you have to flush the syn3 out or just do a normal drain and fill?

 

[msocko3]

Interesting, so when you switched from syn3 to redline shockproof, did you have to flush the syn3 out or just do a normal drain and fill?

Normal drain and fill. The nice thing is if you have a leak coming from the tranny you'll know where its from and may find it easier due to the Shockproof being pepto pink. A few years ago when the shift shaft seal developed a leak I noticed a pink drip on the floor, finding the leak was a snap.

 

[eighty80]

Thank's again for the info.

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

I want to thank you all for your comments. Very much appreciated, and I don't feel quite as bad now.

My plan is to get a quart of the Shockproof today (was hard to find), put it in and ride it a couple thousand, then pull the plug and see what gives. If it's just as bad or worse, will go in and take a look at the throwout bearing. If the plug is basically clean, I will smile.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I want to thank you all for your comments. Very much appreciated, and I don't feel quite as bad now.

My plan is to get a quart of the Shockproof today (was hard to find), put it in and ride it a couple thousand, then pull the plug and see what gives. It it's just as bad or worse, will go in and take a look at the throwout bearing. If the plug is basically clean, I will smile.

If your already seeing metal I would advise you to go the extra steps and pull the transmission side cover and verify that the thrust bearing isnt worn out.

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

If your already seeing metal I would advise you to go the extra steps and pull the transmission side cover and verify that the thrust bearing isnt worn out.

Well, I drained the Mobil 1 and it too was full of silver particles, and it only had 10 miles on it! So I put a Q tip in the clutch release cover oil fill hole and pulled out gobs of silver stiff that was gritty to the touch, and even some hard pieces of metal in the gobs.

This unit has a Champion reverse under the clutch release cover. Is that going to cause me some problems trying to access the thrust bearing?

 

[msocko3]

Well, I drained the Mobil 1 and it too was full of silver particles, and it only had 10 miles on it! So I put a Q tip in the clutch release cover oil fill hole and pulled out gobs of silver stiff that was gritty to the touch, and even some hard pieces of metal in the gobs.

This unit has a Champion reverse under the clutch release cover. Is that going to cause me some problems trying to access the thrust bearing?

The reverse won't hinder you in checking the throw out bearing, somethings messed up in there and needs some inspection to find out whats up.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

As soon as you remove the side cover the oil slinger will be on the right side bearing. It looks like a umbrella with small fingers sticking out of it. Pull it out and the thrust bearing sit on top of it.

Remove the small snap ring and the thrust bearing sits between the thrust races.
HD part #s
1)Snap ring #11096
1)Thrust bearing #37312-75
1)Pair of thrust bearing races #37313-80

You will need 2 side cover gaskets. One gasket goes between the reverse gear plate and the trans housing and the other for the side cover Part# 35607-06

The reverse gear plate will pull off the trans easily. Make sure you do not lose the alignment pins. Remove the old gasket and re install the new one after you clean up.

 

[ttanthony]

Great Information Guys, thank you so much for taking the time to post it.

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

OK, first thanks for the info.

I took off the side cover and the pictures are what I saw. You can see where the "clutch cable coupling" (manual words -- connected to the end of the clutch cable) has a bunch of it ground off (first picture) where it hit the right side washer or bearing on the reverse gear attachment (second picture -- thing with the kex opening in the middle). It appears it only hits when the clutch handle is pulled and draws the coupling into the washer/bearing. You can also see all the ground off silver material at the bottom of the clutch release cover.

Any suggestions about the grinding problem and why it's happening? The right side washer/bearing doesn't budge when I pry on it a bit, and the other sides center washers and shaft can be removed, which also sucks out the shifter push rod.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I owe you an apology. I assumed you had a 6 speed trans and you have a 5 speed. Your reverse gear setup is different for the 5 speed. They eliminate the oil slinger with the reverse gear your trike has.

Here is the link for the pdf file for your reverse gear setup >> Installation Instructions

Click on reverse gear 5 speed revision 7 to download the pdf file.

Im wondering if the large bearing behind the reverse gear place is failing?? With all the metal that is inside the side cover

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

Im wondering if the large bearing behind the reverse gear place is failing?? With all the metal that is inside the side cover

No apology needed -- this is very helpful.

The metal filings seem to have all come from what Champion calls the "Bearing Locknut Nut." It has a shoulder on it that should be about 1/8". Both shafts have it, and it is driven on with a special 3/4" outside hex socket, and has two nylon set screws, plus loctite, that holds in it there. The worn one is as thin as paper at it outside edge, and tapers in to the socket area to maybe 1/16". the other side is perfect, as you can see from my previous picture. The bearing probably has taken a beating, but the balls look OK from what I can see of them, and when I rotate the rear wheel, the bearing doesn't seem to flop around. That "Nut" thing needs replaced though.

Looks to me like the White Brothers easy clutch "coupling" may have been installed 180 degrees out, because the other unworn side is basically flush, so if I turned it around 180 degrees, it probably wouldn't hit the "Nut."

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I would check to see if the wear metals you have are metallic. Using a magnet would confirm that. If it is it you might have a bearing failing

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

I would check to see if the wear metals you have are metallic. Using a magnet would confirm that. If it is it you might have a bearing failing

They are magnetic. I ordered the new nut from Champion, and it only cost $70!! See below for a picture of the near disaster -- the collar is only about 1/16" or less, and paper thin on the edge.

I jiggled the bearing, listened as it turned, looked at the balls as best as I could (retainers around each ball), and cleaned it well with brake cleaner. When I get the new nut, will assemble, fill the transmission with diesel, spin it around, drain, and do again until clean. I've already cleaned the clutch release cover very well. Hopefully, cleaning with diesel will be OK????

Farmers used to clean out their transmissions with 15 gallons of diesel by driving it around for a couple minutes or so, then draining and filling with oil.

 

[msocko3]

They are magnetic. I ordered the new nut from Champion, and it only cost $70!! See below for a picture of the near disaster -- the collar is only about 1/16" or less, and paper thin on the edge.

I jiggled the bearing, listened as it turned, looked at the balls as best as I could (retainers around each ball), and cleaned it well with brake cleaner. When I get the new nut, will assemble, fill the transmission with diesel, spin it around, drain, and do again until clean. I've already cleaned the clutch release cover very well. Hopefully, cleaning with diesel will be OK????

Farmers used to clean out their transmissions with 15 gallons of diesel by driving it around for a couple minutes or so, then draining and filling with oil.

I would think the diesel would be fine to use as a flush. I'd also use a cheaper gear oil to run it 50 - 100 miles and then dump it before filling with good stuff.

 

[Smitty Werben Manjensen]

I would think the diesel would be fine to use as a flush. I'd also use a cheaper gear oil to run it 50 - 100 miles and then dump it before filling with good stuff.

Good suggestion. Will do. I have a lot of gear oil just sitting around waiting to be used.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

You may want to invest in this super strong drain plug magnet >>> Dimple Harley Davidson Super Magnetic drain plugs

 

[eagle1]

go to drainplugmagnets.com they make a drain plug that the magnet will pick up a wrench. sounds like you need this.

 

[trikermutha]

man is that easy pull clutch causing the clutch end to rub on the bearing nut??
picks are hard to totaly see some of the wear items.. but something is wearing on the clutch cable end..

 

[jcolson]

Hey Mike where do you get that Shock Proof and is it better that Amzoil? Thanks Jim

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Redline Shockproof Gear Oil >> Red Line Synthetic Oil - ShockProof® Gear Oils - Heavy ShockProof®

 

[msocko3]

Hey Mike where do you get that Shock Proof and is it better that Amzoil? Thanks Jim

I've been getting it from this place Red Line Shockproof Gear Oils- Synthetic Gear Oils, you can also get it from Amazon.com and if your a Prime member you can get it shipped free, I normally buy it by the case. IMO it isn't any better than the Amsoil, just the pink color makes leaks easier to find.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

... and it stinks more so than any other tranny oil I've ever used. Sitting at a light on a hot day the tranny vent odor will make you think you have an oil leak somewhere for sure.

Seems to me that Redline Shockproof is more sticky than gear oil. Leave a little in your funnel and see how long it stays there.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

... and it stinks more so than any other tranny oil I've ever used. Sitting at a light on a hot day the tranny vent odor will make you think you have an oil leak somewhere for sure.

Seems to me that Redline Shockproof is more sticky than gear oil. Leave a little in your funnel and see how long it stays there.

+1:Agree: