Thinkin about a 124/126 CI motor for a winter project for my trike

[Sloride]

Thinkin about a 124/126 CI motor for a winter project for my trike

Hey guy's,

I love this trike, but I am craving more power. My 2010 RGC trike has a 103 with 255 HD cams Dragos H-pipe exhaust and Power Vision Tuner. It runs "OK" kinda peppy from Idle to about 3800 to 4000 RPM and then it just falls flat. (i understand that is the design of this cam)

I understand it is the weight that is killing my performance (1260#'s). I want to build/buy a Torque monster. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right or not do it at all

I am looking for advice from you guys that are running BIG CI motors.

What motor you went with?
Are you satisfied with your selection?
What you would do different, if you had it to do over again? (if anything)
How much difference it really made in day to day riding?

I am not looking for a race motor, I want a 2000 to 5000 RPM power band that makes some serious torque

 

[NHBAGGER]

Define serious torque?

 

[Sloride]

Define serious torque?

I am not sure, but above 120#'s from 2500 to 5000 RPM

 

[NHBAGGER]

Just changing cams to the TTS100 would get you about 100 ft-lbs from 2000-4500 and 110 from 3000-4000. Pretty good bang for the buck. With just some mild headwork and a good tune you'd probably be within 5 of your goal for pretty cheap money considering what swapping motors would cost.

 

[Sloride]

Just changing cams to the TTS100 would get you about 100 ft-lbs from 2000-4500 and 110 from 3000-4000. Pretty good bang for the buck. With just some mild headwork and a good tune you'd probably be within 5 of your goal for pretty cheap money considering what swapping motors would cost.

NHBAGGER,

Thank you for your reply

I really looked at going the route your talking about. Durability is as important to me as power. If going that route, I know it's probably overkill, but I would need to do the Timken conversion and a welded Crank with S&S lifters and rocker arms to make it nearly bullet proof.

There is only about $2000.00 difference between that build and a new 124 CI motor , I would rather have a big CI motor for the difference.

 

[msocko3]

Hey guy's,

I love this trike, but I am craving more power. My 2010 RGC trike has a 103 with 255 HD cams Dragos H-pipe exhaust and Power Vision Tuner. It runs "OK" kinda peppy from Idle to about 3800 to 4000 RPM and then it just falls flat. (i understand that is the design of this cam)

I understand it is the weight that is killing my performance (1260#'s). I want to build/buy a Torque monster. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right or not do it at all

I am looking for advice from you guys that are running BIG CI motors.

What motor you went with?
Are you satisfied with your selection?
What you would do different, if you had it to do over again? (if anything)
How much difference it really made in day to day riding?

I am not looking for a race motor, I want a 2000 to 5000 RPM power band that makes some serious torque

I your looking to scratch build a 120+ engine PM FLTR2008TRIKE, he's running a 124" engine built to his specifications.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

My advice if you like riding around in the lower rpms is to build a 117". That will keep your stroke the same but the same bore as a 124" such as mine. A 124" requires you to keep your rpms up higher due to the longer stroke

You will make a ton of torque with a 117" which will move your trike through all the gears. Just don't get caught up reading horsepower numbers. Unless your going twist your engine above 5250 rpms

Tom

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I see your in Texas. I would suggest speaking with Steve # GMR Performance in Keller Tx. about what your wanting for engine power. He has a very good reputation

 

[Sloride]

I see your in Texas. I would suggest speaking with Steve # GMR Performance in Keller Tx. about what your wanting for engine power. He has a very good reputation

Thanks Tom, I will give Steve a call

 

[Downtown Cowtown]

Truett and Osborne, did make or still make a set of flywheels that are both big wheels, not one thick and one skinny, built for torque, im thinking on doing this to a evo i have. I rarely ride in the top range. low and mid range even on two wheels, but this double big wheel (flywheels) has been roaming around my brain for a while.

 

[Steve Cole]

Be careful of what you wish for! Looking for something that you may never use is something many get caught up into. Go out and ride what you have and really pay attention to the RPM range you truely use, most of the time. If you ride like most trike owners you will find that you spend 90 +% of the time from 2000 - 3500 RPM and 0 - 45% TPS. If that is you, then build the best for that area and do not worry about the WOT numbers above 4000 RPM as the few times you ever use it just isn't worth it. Take the money you save and put it into the other items your going to need to handle the bigger torque your going to build. Like clutch, trans and cooling.

 

[Sloride]

Be careful of what you wish for! Looking for something that you may never use is something many get caught up into. Go out and ride what you have and really pay attention to the RPM range you truely use, most of the time. If you ride like most trike owners you will find that you spend 90 +% of the time from 2000 - 3500 RPM and 0 - 45% TPS. If that is you, then build the best for that area and do not worry about the WOT numbers above 4000 RPM as the few times you ever use it just isn't worth it. Take the money you save and put it into the other items your going to need to handle the bigger torque your going to build. Like clutch, trans and cooling.

Steve,


what is your opinion of the 117 TQ coming in earlier than the 124 TQ.


My normal RPM riding range is about 2000 to 5000 max RPM


I want roll on the throttle make you smile "Throttle Response" not high RPM HP,

Clutch and cooling will be addressed with the build

 

[clint44]

My advice if you like riding around in the lower rpms is to build a 117". That will keep your stroke the same but the same bore as a 124" such as mine. A 124" requires you to keep your rpms up higher due to the longer stroke
Tom

Tom,correct me if I'm wrong here but all else being equal,a shorter stroke allows higher revs and a longer stroke almost always will create more torque down low,as well as have lower rpm limits. The above statement seems to contradict this. Help me understand what I'm missing here.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Tom,correct me if I'm wrong here but all else being equal,a shorter stroke allows higher revs and a longer stroke almost always will create more torque down low,as well as have lower rpm limits. The above statement seems to contradict this. Help me understand what I'm missing here.

Your statement is correct in regards to the longer stroke having the mechanical advantage of making more torque at lower rpms.

Because we are dealing with a 45 degree Vtwin there is a lot more stress on the components of a longer stroke engine making the torque at a lower rpm compared to a shorter stroke Vtwin engine.

Piston speed at the bottom and top of the longer stroke are faster on the longer stroke due to the thrust and pull of the longer arm.

Having the larger bore engine with components working together in a shorter stroke engine can make similar torque at the lower rpms helps lower the stress on the connecting rods.

It's not good to lug any of the 96" and up twin cam engine as it built from the factory.

Added:

A Harley 120" has a 4 5/8" stroke. However the pin placement of the connecting rod is higher resulting in a shorter connecting rod. The S&S 4 5/8" flywheels use a longer connecting rod. There is a 124" kit now made to up the bore of the HD 120"

 

[clint44]

Thanks for the explanation,Tom.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Thanks for the explanation,Tom.

YW. There was a guy who built a 117" engine that made over 150tq/hp for his Streetglide. He ended up building a 124" that wasnt as radical on the street.

 

[msocko3]

YW. There was a guy who built a 117" engine that made over 150tq/hp for his Streetglide. He ended up building a 124" that wasnt as radical on the street.

Sounds like TXChop, way radical engine. It would have been a hoot as a bar hopper, but traveling would have sucked.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Sounds like TXChop, way radical engine. It would have been a hoot as a bar hopper, but traveling would have sucked.

Yes sir!!

 

[clint44]

I've built a few street cars and bikes in the past with too-radical engines & drivetrains,also. Won't make that mistake again.
How do you think one of the new 120ST engines would work in a trike?

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I've built a few street cars and bikes in the past with too-radical engines & drivetrains,also. Won't make that mistake again.
How do you think one of the new 120ST engines would work in a trike?

Granted the 120st comes with a throttle body. For the amount being spent. I would suggest the S&S 124lc. Spend a little more and get a better engine with the reliability that is proven.

Harley still uses lousy lifters and there is a greater chance of the flywheels shifting compared to the S&S built engine.

If you crunch the costs of building your engine you could save some money. Obviously there is no warranty.

 

[msocko3]

Yes sir!!

That was one wild ass 117, for those interested this is the dyno sheet. Dave Stoddart tuned helped with the R&D and tuned it within an inch of its life. I had Dave tune my 120, he knows hit stuff.



- - - Updated - - -

I've built a few street cars and bikes in the past with too-radical engines & drivetrains,also. Won't make that mistake again.
How do you think one of the new 120ST engines would work in a trike?

IMO, I'm not feeling the love for HD's workmanship like I used too, they're going to disposable for my taste. I'd DIY, have someone build it or look real hard at the S&S LC124.

 

[3rdwheel]

How do you think one of the new 120ST engines would work in a trike?

I've had the 120ST in my trike for about 2,000+ miles now. Just love it! I plan on putting on more miles as weather permits so I can make sure while within the one year warranty that no problems crop up.
With this engine and the 30 tooth sprocket change (from 32), it really is a pleasure to ride. Too bad the next 10 days have no sun - and it's dark when I get home from work!

 

[Sloride]

I have been talking with Frank with Dragos, Scott at Hillside, Gary Williams at Williams Carbs and Steve with GMR about the differences between the 117CI and the 124CI motors.

The majority consensus is that in similar builds, the 124 will build a little more TQ down low, but will not have the low end throttle response that the 117 will have because of the shorter stroke of the 117. Low end TQ does not always equally equate to low end throttle response

Gary Williams compared them to the difference between the 427 BB Chevy and the 454 BB Chevy. The 427 has much better throttle response than the 454 and revs so much quicker.

Having owned both a 69 427 Vette and a 70 454 Chevelle earlier in life, I understood this analogy. I realize comparing these cars is apples and oranges, but I was never beat by a stock 454 Vette in my stock 427 Vette and I raced more than a few.

My trike weighs over 1250#'s dry add another 350#'s with me and my lady, that's 1600#'s before we load all our stuff.

I think low end throttle response will be more important than a few #'s of TQ on the bottom end and most likely losing considerable HP on the top end.

I am going with a 117 CI.

Thank you to everybody who offered advice, I appreciate your help.

 

[Downtown Cowtown]

Ive got a 93 flthc, (evo) and a 05 dyna, (twin cam) would redo my 07 streetglide but its a new motor in it, which would be the best candidate for a 117.

Im thinking the two big flywheels like truett and osborne use, (more torque than one thick one skinny) then the bigger cyls, or maybe just a stock bore ? May not be enough performance increase with the big bore to offset the cost of big bore kit.

i have an extra s&s carb for the evo, and a hotter cam and cnc port of the heads along with custom valves and springs. adjustable pushrods, mmm, maybe roller tip rockers, but that might be no really necessary.

Nightrider has good tips on these builds, but in the end they don't ride trikes. What say you ?

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Ive got a 93 flthc, (evo) and a 05 dyna, (twin cam) would redo my 07 streetglide but its a new motor in it, which would be the best candidate for a 117.

Im thinking the two big flywheels like truett and osborne use, (more torque than one thick one skinny) then the bigger cyls, or maybe just a stock bore ? May not be enough performance increase with the big bore to offset the cost of big bore kit.

i have an extra s&s carb for the evo, and a hotter cam and cnc port of the heads along with custom valves and springs. adjustable pushrods, mmm, maybe roller tip rockers, but that might be no really necessary.

Nightrider has good tips on these builds, but in the end they don't ride trikes. What say you ?

I don't think Truett and Osbourne work on twin cam flywheels

 

[msocko3]

Ive got a 93 flthc, (evo) and a 05 dyna, (twin cam) would redo my 07 streetglide but its a new motor in it, which would be the best candidate for a 117.

Im thinking the two big flywheels like truett and osborne use, (more torque than one thick one skinny) then the bigger cyls, or maybe just a stock bore ? May not be enough performance increase with the big bore to offset the cost of big bore kit.

i have an extra s&s carb for the evo, and a hotter cam and cnc port of the heads along with custom valves and springs. adjustable pushrods, mmm, maybe roller tip rockers, but that might be no really necessary.

Nightrider has good tips on these builds, but in the end they don't ride trikes. What say you ?

The best would be the build with parts that work with each other to achieve the goal you're looking for. It's all in the package, heads need to work with cams, you need a large enough carb or throttle body & injectors to feed air and fuel, the compression needs set to work with the cams. A big one some folks never consider is the exhaust, many of shitty exhaust designs have killed the potential of an engine.

 

[Sloride]

Ive got a 93 flthc, (evo) and a 05 dyna, (twin cam) would redo my 07 streetglide but its a new motor in it, which would be the best candidate for a 117.

Im thinking the two big flywheels like truett and osborne use, (more torque than one thick one skinny) then the bigger cyls, or maybe just a stock bore ? May not be enough performance increase with the big bore to offset the cost of big bore kit.

i have an extra s&s carb for the evo, and a hotter cam and cnc port of the heads along with custom valves and springs. adjustable pushrods, mmm, maybe roller tip rockers, but that might be no really necessary.

Nightrider has good tips on these builds, but in the end they don't ride trikes. What say you ?

Hey Downtown,

I don't know enough about this stuff to mix and match without getting into trouble. I am going to stay with all S&S matched components. It will cost a little more, but I will be comfortable with my choices.

 

[msocko3]

Hey Downtown,

I don't know enough about this stuff to mix and match without getting into trouble. I am going to stay with all S&S matched components. It will cost a little more, but I will be comfortable with my choices.

You have to use care, even with S&S. If you are relying on someone to help make the choices, they have to understand what your expectations are. I know we have one member here who went with an S&S big boar and a set of their cams, the cams did not perform as expected. The builder chose a cam which wasn't suitable for both a trike and the way the person road, they ended up with a bottom end which was softer than they wanted.

Do overs suck, make sure you cross your T's and dot your I's before you do the build.

 

[Sloride]

You have to use care, even with S&S. If you are relying on someone to help make the choices, they have to understand what your expectations are. I know we have one member here who went with an S&S big boar and a set of their cams, the cams did not perform as expected. The builder chose a cam which wasn't suitable for both a trike and the way the person road, they ended up with a bottom end which was softer than they wanted.

Do overs suck, make sure you cross your T's and dot your I's before you do the build.

I have selected Steve at GMR Performance, to do the design, build and tune.

Steve is one of the best designer/tuners around this area.

 

[eighty80]

Do-overs suck?.... They sure do! The 120R as it sits stock is a do-over when installed in a Trike. Wrong cam. Ask me how I know, $1600.00 and with another tune about 2 weeks after the 120R install.

If you are sure what you want, make sure they (the builder) understands what you want.

When I first asked about putting a 120R in a Trike, the answers were.... yeah, book says it will fit, the dyno sheet shows, and that should be fun. The truth is on the street it is much different.