Pic Heavy 2016 Ride Report - 40 Days Following the Front Wheel

[DK Custom Products]

All I can say is... WOW! ThumbUp

Yeah, us too!

Nope, nope, nope.... I couldn't have driven this and certainly would not have trusted someone else to drive.
It's like looking at a scarey movie with both hands over your eyes - while peaking through your fingers!

Scarey and awesome - all at the same time!

Fantastic ya'll....Thanks for sharing.

Carla

Glad you're enjoying, and I bet you would do just fine once you were on the road!




Yeah, you got a point there!

Was the road you went on Skyline Drive just west of Canon City? If not, then I'd like to find out where you went, it sounds like a blast. Skyline is a short ride up a one way road, with mountains on one side and huge drop offs on the other side for part of the ride. When you get to the top, it drops off on both sides as you ride on the ridge for a while, but has incredible views.

Thanks for the trip report. It's been a blast to follow!!

Yes, that is it. Very short, but impressive road!

Kevin and Mary, I'm new to the community having just purchased my 2016 TG 10 days ago and finding this site. I've been on similar sites in my progression from Sportster to Ultra Classic and now to the TG. Let me compliment you on providing a beautiful service to riders out there who dream of what you and Mary are doing. Your report/blog is more addictive than serial TV (GoT). I've been monitoring the site and report for a week before registering. Not only am I hooked but I've shared the link with several of my friends, who don't own trikes but love to travel. We agree that your blog is like a novel - a page turner that you cannot put down. This 40 day trip has been filled with excitement, adventure, beauty, enlightenment, heartache, tragedy and appreciation for the sights, sounds, smells, of the U.S. and its people. Who needs reality TV - we have Kevin and Mary on the road again and eagerly await the next post. Your reports are allowing people to live vicariously through your adventures and maybe giving them a spark to do the same (ok maybe a shorter trip than 40 days) or giving them a respite from their daily grind at work. For this, I thank you.

Since I'm caught up on this current trip report, I've been looking at your others, and have been viewing the Fall Colors trip in 2014. Besides leaving me in wonderment, I've been left with many basic questions about touring as you do.
1. You appear to ride between 250-450 miles a day and up to 10 hours. How often are you stopping rest your aching hind parts and joints and for how long?
2. What is your secret in consistently riding so long day after day? Has to be more than your sheepskin. My seat is screaming after 90 mins and a stop for 20 mins barely gives relief. Do you have to somehow condition your rear end by riding more and more hours like working up for a marathon?
3. Your reports have started with a picture of the many things you're going to pack into your TG and I'm interested in what is actually in all of those small colored bags. What's your typical packing list?
4. What tools are you carrying in that bag tool bag of yours?
5. Are you and Mary using the trikes intercom to communicate over all those many hours in the saddle?
...and many more questions arise every day.

Thanks again for your reports and I pray for your safety between posts. My condolences on the losses of your father-in-law and dear friend, Larry.

Sorry for length of post - but it was actually cut down from all that I had to say.

--JRod

Congrats on your new Tri-Glide, and welcome to the Forum! ThumbUp

Glad to hear you're enjoying the report. Thank you.

Answers to your questions...and as Fuzzy says there is also more details in the Alaska report and the Bella Coola report-

1. We generally stop every 2-3 hours. Usually for around 10-15 minutes, except the 2nd or 3rd stop of the day when we have lunch and that is usually 30 minutes or so. These stops are mostly for gas, eating, water, changing batteries in camera & video camera more than because we are uncomfortable. BUT, because we do stop and move around, I think that is one of the reasons we don't get uncomfortable.

2. The first thing I did when I got this Tri-Glide (and really any bike) is make sure it is comfortable for all day riding. For a full look at what we've done you can view these two links- ONE & TWO where I detail in words and pics what mods we've done.

But specifically, the things we do to make it more comfortable:

-Relocate the Tour-Pak further back so Mary has more room
-Install a backrest for me
-I use a Airhawk seat pad under the sheepskin, Mary is just fine with the sheepskin
-Mary has the Adjustable Passenger Pegs that give her a multitude of foot positions
-I have floorboard extenders and highway pegs that also have heel rests, without those three items I would go bonkers after any length of time
-Get handlebars that put my hands in a comfortable/natural position, so nothing is straining as we ride, I also use ISO grips, they are more comfortable than any others I have tried
-Comfort Lift brackets for the rear shocks that make for a much smoother ride & easier steering
-Find the "sweet spot" for the psi in the air shocks. As little as 2 lbs can make a big difference in how well they absorb the bumps
-Run 22 psi in the rear Tires, that will give a much softer ride than 26 psi

I know some guys that just take aspirin or ibuprofen when they are doing long days. And I have done that on occasion in the distant past. I have found that the combination of the above is very effective at making us both comfortable for full day riding, day after day, no aspirin needed.

I know my response is getting long, but this is important for fully enjoying our expensive TG's...

Most of the time when I am riding there is a fair amount of weight being displaced onto my feet and my back, so that there is not as much on my butt. Getting the "comfort triangle" (feet, hands, butt) set up correctly is very important. It is different for everybody, but I lean on my backrest a lot, and in doing that it puts me in a bit of a reclining position which allows for more weight to be on my feet on the highway pegs or heel rests.

3. Our packing list...oh my!
Two of the bags have vitamins in them.
One has all our cold weather gear and rainsuits.
One has all the charging adapters, USB wires, laptop power cord, etc.
One has all my clothes
Three of them have Marys clothes
Two have food, granola bars, sunflower seeds, gum, etc.
One has E-cig supplies

We also have an overnight bag (toiletries) that unrolls and hands up with pouches in it for easy access. (the black one in the photos)

That's all I can think of right now. We break them up into the smaller bags because they are easier to pack into the trunk & tour pak, taking up all the nooks and cranny's, plus they are easier to find stuff in, in the motel room.

I can't begin to tell you what all Mary brings clothes-wise, but here is my list, and it is the same whether I am on the road for 1 week or 7 weeks.

I take 3 t-shirts & 2 pair of underwear...Target brand of underarmour style (high-tech material). These wash quickly and easily in the motel sink and dry just hanging in the air in a few hours. They also pack up very small. I take 2 pair of Muck Boot socks. Same thing, easy clean and dry in motel.

Pack 1 pair of jeans & 1 pair of short pants, flip-flops, and one long sleeve shirt, & one button up shirt.

4. Rather than list all the tools, here is a photo-

5. We do not use intercom. I've asked her a few times if she wanted to, she says we talk enough already. lol
If I need to talk to her I bump my left elbow on her knee, she leans forward, I lean back a bit and that does the trick. She'll tap me on my left shoulder if she wants my attention.



That was an memory making trip for sure!

Next time you come to Idaho we will go ride this curvy road. !!!ThumbUp

Trent! You've been holding out on me!!! Where is this road???

Yes, let's ride it 2, 3 or 4 times!


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 29 Continued-


Continuing the ride down from Pikes Peak, sometimes the road is curvy and feels like a symphony with the rhythm of the road...

...this road, more often, is sharp, banked and steep turns...

...which are a ton of fun!

A look behind. We are having a blast riding with Scott and Karin.

We pulled over at the side of the road where there was a waterfall (and then forgot to take a pic of it! lol ) to stop for lunch.

We sat on those covered hay bales and ate lunch, watched the cars and bikes going thru the corner, and had a good time talking.

After eating, walked just a bit into the woods...

...near a small stream.

Resumed the ride down the hill, Scott is back leading.

As we got closer to the bottom we started seeing a bit more traffic.

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 29 Continued-




Back at the starting point of the race that is happening tomorrow.

We passed a bunch of the cars racing tomorrow...

...another one.

Cages....slowing us down in the curves. pffft

We stopped at the North Pole, put our helmets back on and we're off to Cripple Creek for the Donkey Derby Fair!

The road to Cripple Creek was curvy, scenic...

...pretty much cage free, a lot of fun...

...and steep, as we climbed over our second pass of 10,000+ feet today.

Coming down the hill, into the "valley" where Cripple Creek is.

What a great day of riding it has been so far!

More coming soon.

Kevin

 

[ctdair]

If You are still in the Cripple Creek area and don't mind gravel roads consider taking Gold Camp road or Phantom Canyon. Spectacular scenery along with road.

 

[Trent]

Next time you come to Idaho we will go ride this curvy road. !!!ThumbUp

This is the driveway to my new home. Luckily it does not snow much here.

 

[DK Custom Products]

If You are still in the Cripple Creek area and don't mind gravel roads consider taking Gold Camp road or Phantom Canyon. Spectacular scenery along with road.

Thank you for the tips, will look into those two roads next time. I am over 3 weeks behind in the Ride Report.

This is the driveway to my new home. Luckily it does not snow much here.

Well, that's just mean! hahaha

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 29 Concluded-




Besides the mountain pass to get here, besides what a fun road it was getting here, Scott and Karin brought us to Cripple Creek today because of the Donkey Derby Fair that is being held here.

While we did not stay for the race, we did see more donkeys in a day than I ever had before...

...we had an enjoyable time walking thru all the fair shops set up on the street.

Still don't know exactly what a Donkey Derby looks like, or why they need stations...maybe next time.

Leaving Cripple Creek...

...the land is scenic...

...free of traffic...

...and has some really nice curves and elevation changes. Some roads are a bit boring, some a bit frantic/adrenaline flowing, this one has some really nice stretches where you just get into the comfortable groove of flowing with the curves.

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 29 Concluded-






After we left Cripple Creek, I thought we were headed back to Colorado Springs.


It was a bit of a surprise when Scott signaled left turn and we pulled thru here.

Not being sure what to expect...but it did not take long to realize where we were.

Being one way, it wasn't like we could turn around anyway...j/k, everywhere Scott and Karin have taken us to has been fantastic, and this was too. A look back-

I had mentioned to Scott that we'd like to ride Skyline Drive. CSI had described it to us and it sound like something we'd like to experience. Here we are!

Many of the photos I have posted from earlier today look more dramatic than they felt while we were actually riding them.


These photos look LESS dramatic than it felt while we were riding.

This is a one lane road, along the ridge of a mountain. It is well over 1000 feet down on both sides. Very interesting feeling!


A look back-

I think the video may convey a bit more of what it was like up there.


To watch the short Video, click HERE.


It will open in a new window and you can make the video larger by click the little arrows in the bottom right.










Headed down the other end-

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 29 Concluded-




After coming down off Skyline Drive we rode into Canyon City and stopped for some gas.


It has only been 141 miles since leaving Colorado Springs almost 8 hours ago.


We've ridden up to Pikes Peak at 14100 feet, back down, then over to Cripple Creek and on to Canyon City.


Temps have gone from 80 to 50 and back to 90 this afternoon.


I am super pleased with how well the TG is running and very pleased with the MPG it is getting! Averaged almost 40 mpg over these last 141 miles.

Now we are headed back to Colorado Springs. Not long into the ride back we saw this-

But we decided not to put on the rain suits. It was warm, and still quite a ways off.


Plus, as we twisted and turned on the ride back, it looked like it was staying off to our right. Sort of. lol

With the clouds and the close by storm it was cooling off nicely also. As with everywhere else we have been following Scott & Karin, this was a really fun road!

As we entered the outskirts of Colorado Springs it started raining a bit...

...by this time the temps had dropped into the low 70's also. Scott and Karin had further to go to get to their home than we did to the Super 8. We stopped while they put on their rain suits.

We were just a few miles away from the motel. Looking back at Scott and Karin. Those Stealth LED Driving Lights are very noticeable!

We turned right toward the motel as they kept straight toward their home.

WOW! What a day! Only 200 miles, but what an amazing 9.5 hours & 200 miles!


Yesterday and today was kickstands up at 9 AM, tomorrow is a short riding day, but because of the weather forecast, it is kickstands up at 8 AM!






Day 30 coming soon!


Kevin

 

[ol' school]

Skyline Drive looks like a neat little road... very unlike Skyline Drive over here on the East Coast In Virginia. Ours is just a twisty mountain ride with lots of tourist and overlooks.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Skyline Drive looks like a neat little road... very unlike Skyline Drive over here on the East Coast In Virginia. Ours is just a twisty mountain ride with lots of tourist and overlooks.

I've never been on a "Skyline Drive" before, sounds like the ones in VA and UT would be some fun!

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 30-


Today is a short riding day. After riding out toward Rye, CO to see Bishop Castle, we are headed over to Scott & Karin's for supper.


Due to the weather forecast for this afternoon, we are up riding earlier than I am usually awake!




Eating breakfast as we make our way out of the city.

This is a new one for me! Shadow pic in the morning!


Look ma, no hands!

It is not long til we are riding thru some really nice countryside.

Starting to climb...

...on, as you can see, some really nice winding road!

Now this is a sign I do not see too often! But it certainly appears to be signaling "fun ahead"!

Sure enough, the road looks like the sign!

Here is just a snippet of a video, showing just a tiny taste of the fun road and the fantastic views!


Click HERE to see it.








Too soon we are at Bishop Castle.

This was built by hand, by one man. If interested in details, here is the website- http://www.bishopcastle.org/










Looking up at the castle from where we parked.

Looking down at the TG's from up in the castle.

More on Day 30 coming soon.


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 30 Concluded-




There is a lot of reading that can be done on the net about Jim Bishop's fight with the government to build this castle.


There are various signs up all over the property with his views of the government...here is one of them-

A pic of one of the stairways...

...yes, they are very narrow and uneven. A bit claustrophobic feeling, but I had to traverse a few of them. Mary would not get close them. lol

A more conventional staircase.

Inside one of the larger rooms...

...another view.

We did not go any higher than the stain-glass room, which was not even close to halfway up.

Relaxing on the porch of the gift shop.

A look at the entrance as we're leaving.

Quite an interesting place, worth checking out...if it turns out you don't like it, the ride up and back is great!




Headed back toward CS. Beautiful country.

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 30 Concluded-






This road is just as fun, if not more so, on the way back!

Here is a short video. Click HERE to view it.


Make it full screen by clicking the arrows in the bottom right. At about the 10 second mark you will see a deer run from right to left directly in front of Scott & Karin. Pretty sure he would have hit it if he had not put on his brakes.


Sorry for the poor quality.






Down out of the mountains now, into the high desert.

We stopped at this coffee shop. They have shaded picnic tables in the back.


Mary & Karin bought some coffee and all four of us ate lunches that we had packed and carried with us.


We talked everything from bikes, trikes, computers, health, and a ton more. Had a great time visiting.

Back on the road toward Scott & Karin's.

Could pic-

After we got to their house 4 hours just flew by.


Scott and I did a bit of work on my TG. We put the horn back on with a new bracket I had picked up at a dealership.


We replaced the buggered up shift shaft with a new one I had picked up at the same dealership.


Had a great meal, talked guns and a variety of other topics. Before we knew it it was getting a bit dark/threatening rain and it was 30 minutes ride back to the motel.


Can't thank Scott & Karin enough for taking the time to show us around this great State!






Headed back to the Super 8 Mary was able...

...to capture some great sunset...

...and cloud pics.

What a fantastic 3 days this has been!

Thank you Scott & Karin!








Day 31 coming soon.

Kevin

 

[Recall]

Kevin,

Thank you once again for an excellent ride report. I just spent a couple great evenings catching up with your travels. As always your narrative along with the great photos Mary captures makes it possible to follow along like we are on the road with you.

Our condolences for your family's loss.

Ride safe and keep the great posts coming!

I too need to see what mods have netted you the mileage you are getting.

Be safe

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin,

Thank you once again for an excellent ride report. I just spent a couple great evenings catching up with your travels. As always your narrative along with the great photos Mary captures makes it possible to follow along like we are on the road with you.

Our condolences for your family's loss.

Ride safe and keep the great posts coming!

I too need to see what mods have netted you the mileage you are getting.

Be safe

Thank you. We lost Larry Weaver and Mary's dad in a 2 week period. Larry was tragic and John was, well, there are no words. Both will be remembered well.

It's good to hear you are enjoying the Ride Report, there's still more coming.

To run well and get good mpg, the fundamental issue that the TG has needs to be addressed...that is one of it running to hot for its' own good. Whether or not the heat is bothersome to the rider or not, they come from the factory running so hot that cannot get good MPG or power in warm weather, even if a Stage I has been done on them.

The complete list of what I have done to the TG in regards to it running strong and getting great MPG can be seen in post #196 at this link- http://www.triketalk.com/forum/thre...ROJECT-TRI-GLIDE-Report-w-Lots-of-Pics/page20

Here is a LINK that explains the why of the Motor Co. selling them this way (all Twin Cams, but the TG suffers the most), and what can be done to fix it.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31-


Today we are headed for Ouray, CO. The town at the base of the Million Dollar Highway!




Leaving our "home away from home" for the last 3 nights.

Making our way out of Colorado Springs. I least like being behind an 18 wheeler, close behind that I don't like being beside one. Mary takes a pic as I accelerate past this one.


No offense to you truckers, I appreciate what you do, and that most of you are the best drivers on the road....there is just too much I can't see from behind or beside you.


Mary in the Mirror!

Taking the same road we did a couple of days ago to get to Pikes Peak...

...only this time we keep going straight instead of turning left.

One of the few towns we passed thru today...interesting name.

The first of four mountain passes (that I saw signs for) that we climbed today.

This was a fun stretch of road...

...nice and winding, while climbing. btw, I am getting used to the quieter exhaust note, and Mary is really happy with it. It is still loud enough to get a cagers attention...just not over the top loud like I am used to.

The scenery is great, and this last few miles of the climb to the next summit is unusually straight (compared to what we've been riding)

Wilkerson Pass- with snow-capped mountains in the distance.

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31 Continued-




Going over the top of Wilkerson Pass there are a few little curves, and some great views...

...part of what we see is a huge valley, and a road so straight and long it disappears from sight in the distance.

While greener, this stretch of road reminds me of "The Loneliest Road" that we traveled in Nevada a few weeks ago.


Not much traffic, and straight road as far as we can see...

...but it was much shorter. From Wilkerson Pass til we turned left at the 285 was only 28 miles.

Another Pass-

Winding thru some hills...

Enjoying the ride...

The views in Colorado never cease to amaze us...

...and the great riding roads seem endless.

Stopped at the base of the climb up Monarch Pass for fresh batteries in the cameras.

More on Day 31 coming soon.

Kevin

 

[GoSlo]

Glad that you're enjoying the rides through Colorado. For those those of us that live out here, we know how lucky we are and probably take the rides and scenery for granted more than we should.

Just as an FYI, there are 29 passes in Colorado that have paved roads with an elevation of 10,000 feet or more!! Those do not include roads like Pikes Peak or Mt. Evans since it's one way up and down (guess you have to be able to ride up one side and down the other to make it an official "pass"). You've hit some good ones so far and hopefully you'll get a chance to ride over a few more. Great trip report as usual!!

 

[DJFaninTN]

i enjoy each night catching up on your trip. some awesome views that you have shared with us and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to allow us to come along on this journey with you!

i think most of us are envious of you being able to have a trip like this. ThumbUp

 

[DK Custom Products]

Glad that you're enjoying the rides through Colorado. For those those of us that live out here, we know how lucky we are and probably take the rides and scenery for granted more than we should.

Just as an FYI, there are 29 passes in Colorado that have paved roads with an elevation of 10,000 feet or more!! Those do not include roads like Pikes Peak or Mt. Evans since it's one way up and down (guess you have to be able to ride up one side and down the other to make it an official "pass"). You've hit some good ones so far and hopefully you'll get a chance to ride over a few more. Great trip report as usual!!

Yes, the last couple of years we have discovered how great y'all have it in Colorado!

i enjoy each night catching up on your trip. some awesome views that you have shared with us and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to allow us to come along on this journey with you!

i think most of us are envious of you being able to have a trip like this. ThumbUp

Glad to hear you're enjoying.

We know we are most fortunate to be able to make these trips. Even though it means working 60-80 hours a week the rest of the year, it is worth it!

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31 Continued-


Short on time today, so short report.




With fresh batteries in Marys' camera and the video camera, we head up the hill. We've never been on this road before, not sure what to expect, but it looks good from here!

The views are stunning!

The road has a great surface...

...it is fast, winding, banked well, and steep...

...with some sharper curves here and there...

...that I slow down a bit for, but for the most part I am running up the hill at 60-70...

...mostly in 4th gear, yeah, it is steep! Every now and then I jump into 5th.

Before you know it, we are at the summit! Besides being 11,300 feet, it is also at the Continental Divide.


We spent a few minutes in the gift shop...

...then went over to the corner of the parking for a scenic view while we ate lunch....

...that's a ways down to the snow!

More on Day 31 coming soon.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31 Concluded-




This is the little scenic corner where we ate lunch.

Packing up and getting ready to head out...

...the new larger Tour-Pak, that looks smaller, can hold quite a bit!

A look back toward the summit as we head down.

Unlike the pace I set, tearing up the hill to the summit...

...we taking a slow easy ride down, enjoying the winding road...

...& the curves (that I do speed up in a bit, just instinct-lol)...

...and the beauty of the mountains.

We are soon out of the mountains...

...and looking at a long straight road.

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31 Concluded-




Relaxing, cruise control on 70, heading down the road.

We're riding thru quite a variety of landscapes today...

...this seems like a lake, but it is Gunnison River.

Mary in the Mirror, and some fellow travelers ahead.

Back next to the river, with an amazing view!

This was a nice winding road thru a canyon, with a fair amount of traffic on it.

Finally got past the truck/trailer...

...but soon after the canyon ran out, but not the fantastic views!

Nothing like being in the wind on the open road!

Those mountains with snow on them...that is where we're headed!

More in next post.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 31 Concluded-




Making our way thru the town of Montrose, the last town before Ouray!

We're on the other side of Montrose now....

...that's where we're headed! We were just here last year, and are very happy to be back.

This is the last pic Mary got before the battery died...since we are just a couple of miles from Ouray we did not bother to stop and put a charged one in.

Here we are at the River's Edge Motel in Ouray. It is one of the few motels that we made reservations at ahead of time. She made them over 2 months ago and barely got them that far ahead!

I don't think there is anywhere you can turn in this town where there is not a good view!

After we unpacked and showered, we went up to Main Street and had dinner on the rooftop at the Ouray Brewery.

A pic on the way downstairs.

Back at the motel, the sun is still bright, high on the mountainside.

More coming soon.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Day 32-


We spent the day in Ouray visiting with Alan. (Fuzzy)


He drove down from Grand Junction for the day. Thanks, man.


Unbelievably we did not take any pictures. So caught up in the day, we did not even think about it.


We walked around town a bit, had some lunch, and had a great time catching up.






Toward the end of the day is when we got the sad news, Mary's dad is not going to make it much longer. He had been sick for years, and wanting to go meet his Maker for awhile now.


Mary spent some time researching flights. We are not near an airport, so we are changing up our plans a bit and getting her to the airport in Colorado Springs at noon, day after tomorrow.






*******Break from the Ride Report***************


As I have mentioned in previous posts, I am weeks behind in the Ride Report.


Mary did fly home, and was able to spend some quality time with her dad before he passed.


Last week we went to his memorial service and it was a sad & uplifting time rolled in together.


Sad, in that he will be missed, uplifting in that there were many friends that shared stories of great times they had with him.


He was a disabled Korean Vet (but you'd not know it, even though he was carrying around a fair amount of shrapnel), and some of the stories related by his fellow Vets, family and friends had everyone in stitches. The minister had to cut it short, suggesting that we continue in the fellowship hall. lol


At 15 he enlisted in the Navy, changed to the U.S. Army at 17, and then later to the U.S. Marines. (that is a whole other story)


The Military Honor Service at the Corinth National Cemetery was an honor to attend. John was well remembered.


There was not a dry eye during Taps or the folding & Presentment of the American Flag.




******************************************




Day 33 of the Ride Report will continue in the next day or two.

Kevin

 

[ol' school]

I am sure I have said this before, but sorry for your lose. Mary's Dad sounds like he was an awesome man to know and quite the patriot.

Looking forward to the rest of your trip!

 

[Catfish]

I am sure I have said this before, but sorry for your lose. Mary's Dad sounds like he was an awesome man to know and quite the patriot.

Looking forward to the rest of your trip!

It couldn't have been expressed better, ol' school, Ditto!