Dyno questions

[GoSlo]

What sort of questions should I ask the people that are going to dyno my TriGlide? Is there something that will tip me off that they don't really know what they're doing? Maybe it's not that difficult and they'll do just fine? What sort of numbers (torque and hp) should I expect?

The add ons are listed in my signature.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

 

[Hernandovan]

Bill obrian at iron horse in lecanto fl did my 2012 . It has true duals , kn filter. He uses his own program in his computer and I cam away with 91 hp and 103 ft lbs torque. Very happy with it. My torque curve maxes at 3200 rpm.

 

[msocko3]

What sort of questions should I ask the people that are going to dyno my TriGlide? Is there something that will tip me off that they don't really know what they're doing? Maybe it's not that difficult and they'll do just fine? What sort of numbers (torque and hp) should I expect?

The add ons are listed in my signature.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

What tuner are you going to use? Does the person who is going to tune your trike know how to tune with it? How are they going to sample the exhaust gases? If using a gas analyzer when was the last time it was calibrated? If they haven't calibrated it in several years their not interested in doing a good job. Where will they be getting the exhaust sample? through the muffler and in to each exhaust pipe or using rivnuts which are holes drilled in each pipe under the heat shields and then attaching the sample tubing to each pipe in this location. Either method will be fine, the holes they put for the rivnuts are then plugged with a screw once the tune is complete.

What is their exhaust gas sample tubing made of? Some use copper which can throw the results off, Stainless is what is used by folks who know what their doing. Will they be sampling both the front and rear cylider exhaust gas at the same time or will they tune one and then the other. Some shops have 2 gas analyzers so they can sample both front and rear at the same time. Other shops will tune the front and then move to the rear, not the best way but it will work. If they say they tune the front and then copy the numbers from the front to rear run as fast and as far away as you can.

Will they work on the timing? I've run into lazy tuners who do the AFR and not worry about the timing. Not working the timing table will be leaving power and torque on the table, and possibly you could have some pinging issues down the road.

Does the tuner tune it in open loop or will he use closed loop in the tune also. Any areas put in open loop will ignore the O2 sensors, closed loop will use input from the O2 sensors to adjust the AFR as you ride. There are tuners out there who don't like O2 sensors and tune everything in open loop. I like to see the areas you ride in set to closed loop so you get decent fuel mileage and the O2 sensors adjust for the differences in the fuel.

How long will the tune take? If they knock it out in 2 or 3 hours your getting jipped. I've yet to get a good tune in under 5 hours, sometimes they want it for the whole day or longer so they can check warm up tables.

Years ago I had a tune by a local who all the folks around town raved about, talk about dissapointment. My bike pinged, ran hot and was just not very fun to ride. Once I started quizing the guy I found out just how bad he really was. His idea of a tune was tune the front cyl and then copy the front VE table to the rear. The only timing work he did was in the higher rpm and throttle areas, it ran good wide open but was terrible any other place.

 

[msocko3]

Bill obrian at iron horse in lecanto fl did my 2012 . It has true duals , kn filter. He uses his own program in his computer and I cam away with 91 hp and 103 ft lbs torque. Very happy with it. My torque curve maxes at 3200 rpm.

91/103 with exhaust and air cleaner? No cams? Some remarkable numbers if all you have is exhaust and air cleaner, I see numbers like that with engines that have had the cams changed also.

But then depending on the dyno manufacturer and how often it is calibrated and the software updated the numbers can differ. Biggest thing is if it rides good and gets good fuel milage thats what counts the most.

 

[Sloufoot]

Dobeck Performance was here at the POW-MIA motorcycle rodeo last week with their portable dyno. The guy that was with it used to work for DynoJet. Can't remember his name.
This guy has some real wild ideas for tuning ! He is one that has real problems with the rear cylinder. He says you can't really tune the rear cylinder. Just copy the front tune to the rear, & let it find it's best tune on it's own. "The rear cylinder is all over the place no mater what you do with it". That was his way of doing the Vision & commander tuners. The Dobeck only uses one O2 wideband on their Gen4 set-up.
And boy are they proud of their in-dash AFR meter ! That is where you do the fine tune on their latest unit.
Not impressed !
Nice portable dyno tho. No trikes........

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

What tuner are you going to use? Does the person who is going to tune your trike know how to tune with it? How are they going to sample the exhaust gases? If using a gas analyzer when was the last time it was calibrated? If they haven't calibrated it in several years their not interested in doing a good job. Where will they be getting the exhaust sample? through the muffler and in to each exhaust pipe or using rivnuts which are holes drilled in each pipe under the heat shields and then attaching the sample tubing to each pipe in this location. Either method will be fine, the holes they put for the rivnuts are then plugged with a screw once the tune is complete.

What is their exhaust gas sample tubing made of? Some use copper which can throw the results off, Stainless is what is used by folks who know what their doing. Will they be sampling both the front and rear cylider exhaust gas at the same time or will they tune one and then the other. Some shops have 2 gas analyzers so they can sample both front and rear at the same time. Other shops will tune the front and then move to the rear, not the best way but it will work. If they say they tune the front and then copy the numbers from the front to rear run as fast and as far away as you can.

Will they work on the timing? I've run into lazy tuners who do the AFR and not worry about the timing. Not working the timing table will be leaving power and torque on the table, and possibly you could have some pinging issues down the road.

Does the tuner tune it in open loop or will he use closed loop in the tune also. Any areas put in open loop will ignore the O2 sensors, closed loop will use input from the O2 sensors to adjust the AFR as you ride. There are tuners out there who don't like O2 sensors and tune everything in open loop. I like to see the areas you ride in set to closed loop so you get decent fuel mileage and the O2 sensors adjust for the differences in the fuel.

How long will the tune take? If they knock it out in 2 or 3 hours your getting jipped. I've yet to get a good tune in under 5 hours, sometimes they want it for the whole day or longer so they can check warm up tables.

Years ago I had a tune by a local who all the folks around town raved about, talk about dissapointment. My bike pinged, ran hot and was just not very fun to ride. Once I started quizing the guy I found out just how bad he really was. His idea of a tune was tune the front cyl and then copy the front VE table to the rear. The only timing work he did was in the higher rpm and throttle areas, it ran good wide open but was terrible any other place.

:Agree:

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

91/103 with exhaust and air cleaner? No cams? Some remarkable numbers if all you have is exhaust and air cleaner, I see numbers like that with engines that have had the cams changed also.

But then depending on the dyno manufacturer and how often it is calibrated and the software updated the numbers can differ. Biggest thing is if it rides good and gets good fuel milage thats what counts the most.

:Agree: the numbers sound suspect.

I have had a disagreement with a couple tuners on tuning a trike and how the tune requires a lot more time with tuning with them using on the road data runs that the dyno can simulate with wind weight and fuel that effect the engine in a trike.

I also think a specific map from TTS for a trike with air filter and modified exhaust calibration to start from would aid those to get dialed in on the calibration of the ecm with fewer VTunes.

 

[mikestrike]

Slloufoot, question, Do you have any idea who does Dyno tuning here in Idaho for Trikes? I am over in the Boise area. I've made a number of calls and can't find a shop anywhere from Twin Falls to Idaho Falls. Thanks. Mike

Dobeck Performance was here at the POW-MIA motorcycle rodeo last week with their portable dyno. The guy that was with it used to work for DynoJet. Can't remember his name.
This guy has some real wild ideas for tuning ! He is one that has real problems with the rear cylinder. He says you can't really tune the rear cylinder. Just copy the front tune to the rear, & let it find it's best tune on it's own. "The rear cylinder is all over the place no mater what you do with it". That was his way of doing the Vision & commander tuners. The Dobeck only uses one O2 wideband on their Gen4 set-up.
And boy are they proud of their in-dash AFR meter ! That is where you do the fine tune on their latest unit.
Not impressed !
Nice portable dyno tho. No trikes........

 

[Sloufoot]

Slloufoot, question, Do you have any idea who does Dyno tuning here in Idaho for Trikes? I am over in the Boise area. I've made a number of calls and can't find a shop anywhere from Twin Falls to Idaho Falls. Thanks. Mike

Mike, there is a place in Shelly that has a car dyno that said if I wanted to use theirs, I would need to supply the software to do a tune. They do a lot of the race cars around here, but I don't think they know all that much about motorcycles.
Anyone that has a dyno for auto's can , if they want to take the time to do the tie-down right , do a trike. I am still looking around northern Utah. There should be one around SLC, Logan or Ogden.
Have you tried Pro Power Performance over in Boise? They build trikes & big power bikes. If nothing else maybe they can tell ya where a good one is .
Pro Power Performance Motorcycle Shop
pepper

 

[msocko3]

:Agree: the numbers sound suspect.

I have had a disagreement with a couple tuners on tuning a trike and how the tune requires a lot more time with tuning with them using on the road data runs that the dyno can simulate with wind weight and fuel that effect the engine in a trike.

I also think a specific map from TTS for a trike with air filter and modified exhaust calibration to start from would aid those to get dialed in on the calibration of the ecm with fewer VTunes.

They sure are different, timing is going to be different in most cases due to the extra load the trike engine is carrying.

 

[msocko3]

Dobeck Performance was here at the POW-MIA motorcycle rodeo last week with their portable dyno. The guy that was with it used to work for DynoJet. Can't remember his name.
This guy has some real wild ideas for tuning ! He is one that has real problems with the rear cylinder. He says you can't really tune the rear cylinder. Just copy the front tune to the rear, & let it find it's best tune on it's own. "The rear cylinder is all over the place no mater what you do with it". That was his way of doing the Vision & commander tuners. The Dobeck only uses one O2 wideband on their Gen4 set-up.
And boy are they proud of their in-dash AFR meter ! That is where you do the fine tune on their latest unit.
Not impressed !
Nice portable dyno tho. No trikes........

If he can't get the rear tuned he needs to spend time learning from a competent tuner. Sure some builds are going to pose more challenges than others, especially certain cam, head porting combinations and some exhaust systems. A mild build using just a mild bolt in cam should be tuned pretty easy. I've worked with and have watched different folks tune and haven't seen anyone have issued getting the rear cylinder tuned. My 06 Ultra has been on many of different dyno's over the years, some guys were good and some just plain lazy and clueless.

 

[Sloufoot]

If he can't get the rear tuned he needs to spend time learning from a competent tuner. Sure some builds are going to pose more challenges than others, especially certain cam, head porting combinations and some exhaust systems. A mild build using just a mild bolt in cam should be tuned pretty easy. I've worked with and have watched different folks tune and haven't seen anyone have issued getting the rear cylinder tuned. My 06 Ultra has been on many of different dyno's over the years, some guys were good and some just plain lazy and clueless.

What really got me was one RG there had a supercharger on his, & he was going to let Dobeck do a tune on it for him. I couldn't believe it so I took a look, & sure as hell it had a Dobeck Gen4 on it.
Damm nice bike ! Won't be for long tho..........
I guess looks are everything ! It doesn't really have to run right !pepper

 

[mikestrike]

Sloufoot, I was at Pro Power Performance on Friday and they can not do Trikes on their machine and had no suggestions on who does trikes. They only do two wheel bikes and only with the Power Commander tuner. The hunt keeps on, let me know if you find one. Thanks

Mike, there is a place in Shelly that has a car dyno that said if I wanted to use theirs, I would need to supply the software to do a tune. They do a lot of the race cars around here, but I don't think they know all that much about motorcycles.
Anyone that has a dyno for auto's can , if they want to take the time to do the tie-down right , do a trike. I am still looking around northern Utah. There should be one around SLC, Logan or Ogden.
Have you tried Pro Power Performance over in Boise? They build trikes & big power bikes. If nothing else maybe they can tell ya where a good one is .
Pro Power Performance Motorcycle Shop
pepper

 

[GoSlo]

What tuner are you going to use? Does the person who is going to tune your trike know how to tune with it? How are they going to sample the exhaust gases? If using a gas analyzer when was the last time it was calibrated? If they haven't calibrated it in several years their not interested in doing a good job. Where will they be getting the exhaust sample? through the muffler and in to each exhaust pipe or using rivnuts which are holes drilled in each pipe under the heat shields and then attaching the sample tubing to each pipe in this location. Either method will be fine, the holes they put for the rivnuts are then plugged with a screw once the tune is complete.

What is their exhaust gas sample tubing made of? Some use copper which can throw the results off, Stainless is what is used by folks who know what their doing. Will they be sampling both the front and rear cylider exhaust gas at the same time or will they tune one and then the other. Some shops have 2 gas analyzers so they can sample both front and rear at the same time. Other shops will tune the front and then move to the rear, not the best way but it will work. If they say they tune the front and then copy the numbers from the front to rear run as fast and as far away as you can.

Will they work on the timing? I've run into lazy tuners who do the AFR and not worry about the timing. Not working the timing table will be leaving power and torque on the table, and possibly you could have some pinging issues down the road.

Does the tuner tune it in open loop or will he use closed loop in the tune also. Any areas put in open loop will ignore the O2 sensors, closed loop will use input from the O2 sensors to adjust the AFR as you ride. There are tuners out there who don't like O2 sensors and tune everything in open loop. I like to see the areas you ride in set to closed loop so you get decent fuel mileage and the O2 sensors adjust for the differences in the fuel.

How long will the tune take? If they knock it out in 2 or 3 hours your getting jipped. I've yet to get a good tune in under 5 hours, sometimes they want it for the whole day or longer so they can check warm up tables.

Years ago I had a tune by a local who all the folks around town raved about, talk about dissapointment. My bike pinged, ran hot and was just not very fun to ride. Once I started quizing the guy I found out just how bad he really was. His idea of a tune was tune the front cyl and then copy the front VE table to the rear. The only timing work he did was in the higher rpm and throttle areas, it ran good wide open but was terrible any other place.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Those are just the kind of questions I need to know to ask.

All I know about these guys are they're a H-D dealership in Glenwwod Springs, have had a trike dyno for quite a while and do a lot of trikes since they are the only ones in the state. The service manager at my local H-D dealership called them and talked to the service manager to see if he could get a feel for what they know and do. He said it sounded like they know what they're doing. I understand that doesn't mean they really know what they're doing, but with your list of questions, I'll get a better feel before they start. They estimated 4 hours, but said it could take longer, so I'm spending the night to give them all the time they need.

Can think of worse places to spend a couple of days and a night!

 

[msocko3]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Those are just the kind of questions I need to know to ask.

All I know about these guys are they're a H-D dealership in Glenwwod Springs, have had a trike dyno for quite a while and do a lot of trikes since they are the only ones in the state. The service manager at my local H-D dealership called them and talked to the service manager to see if he could get a feel for what they know and do. He said it sounded like they know what they're doing. I understand that doesn't mean they really know what they're doing, but with your list of questions, I'll get a better feel before they start. They estimated 4 hours, but said it could take longer, so I'm spending the night to give them all the time they need.

Can think of worse places to spend a couple of days and a night!

Just them stating 4 hours or could take longer is a good sign, some combinations will tune in real quick if the person doing the tuning is good. Then there are other combinations that will challenge you and make you earn it.