Cams vs torque and hp/?

[msocko3]

I talked with the dyno person. He explained how the dyno is more accurate than a person and it will create its own mapping, didn't really give me a map. I saved the map from the pcv and will try to post. The ignition is the same on both cylinders.

I'm going to make an assumption, the base map in the ECM is a stage 1 for the 103. With that assumption, and considering it is now a 106 with cams and much better flowing heads, I think your tune is jacked up. Who ever tuned it gave it a lick and a promise. Some of the reasons I think they didn't do it right are, from looking at the screen shots you provided in the other post. I would have expected to see more fuel adjustments across the whole range, the 2nd thing is timing. They could have split the timing into front and rear, you don't have to have just one timing table for both cylinders. The front and rear cylinder never have the same timing curves, to do so from a tuning stand point is just lazy and doing a half assed job.

I'll bet the person who tuned it has maybe 2 hours tops in that tune, if that. To tune that build properly it should take around 4 hours or more. The last time I saw a 2 hour wonder tune, it pinged and ran hot. The person who tuned that left power and torque on the table, someone who knows what they are doing, and wants to do a good job will get more out of that build.

I'm not sure who the tuning dealer is, I see a couple possibilities if you want to check them out. http://www.harleyofmasoncity.com/ http://www.mcgrathpowersports.com/

Another one is Top Gear Performance LLC 405 1st Ave SW
Cedar Rapids, IA 52404
319-270-7747

According to Dynojet all 3 have a Trike dyno which is the DJ250ix. If you would talk with McGrath or Top Gear, I would ask them how many Harley Twin cam bikes or trikes they have tuned. You want someone who knows how to tune a Harley.

 

[T.P.]

I went to the Harley dealer today to find out his next idea. He had asked for Steve's phone no. at TTS to talk about the cams. After talking with Bob today, he has came up with 3 more ideas to try.

Check for sumping.
Change the exhaust from v&h true duals to 2-1-2 exhaust.
Advance the timing.

Bob seems to think the exhaust will make a big difference. Also after talking Steve about the cams, advance the timing then re-dyno.

Im taking it back in Tues. Hope to know by the weekend.

 

[msocko3]

I went to the Harley dealer today to find out his next idea. He had asked for Steve's phone no. at TTS to talk about the cams. After talking with Bob today, he has came up with 3 more ideas to try.

Check for sumping.
Change the exhaust from v&h true duals to 2-1-2 exhaust.
Advance the timing.

Bob seems to think the exhaust will make a big difference. Also after talking Steve about the cams, advance the timing then re-dyno.

Im taking it back in Tues. Hope to know by the weekend.

V&H true duals are terrible pipes, they are bottom end torque killers. The best that could be said for them is they are noise makers. I had a set on an 05 Electraglide, after about a month I took them off and sold them on ebay.

The question you should ask the dyno guy is, why wasn't timing optimized when he was tuning it. A complete tune is more than just setting AFR, it includes timing, and other table adjustments if available. Since you have the PCV, the only thing they can adjust is timing and getting the AFR set right. Also sometimes advancing timing actually cost torque, the tuner has to play with it. He has to advance it and see what happens to the power and torque, then take timing away if advancing it didn't improve things. Like I said earlier, the guy who tuned it gave it a lick and a promise, they shouldn't charge you for something they didn't do right the 1st time.

 

[T.P.]

I picked up the trike today. Now with 106, screaming eagle heads, TTS 100 cams and 2-1-2 exhaust, it is now running better than it has since triked last year. The V&H true duals was definitely a major part of the problem. It now Dynos at 79.69 hp with 93.38 torque. I'll get the dyno sheet and post.

Its about 70 miles to home. I could set the cruise at 62 mph in 6th gear about 2300 rpm and pull most hills, roll on throttle and pick up speed. 5th gear no problem at all.

This is with only me. Mostly it is with my wife also and sometimes a trailer. As well as it runs now , I don't think it will be a problem.

 

[geezerglide11441]

I picked up the trike today. Now with 106, screaming eagle heads, TTS 100 cams and 2-1-2 exhaust, it is now running better than it has since triked last year. The V&H true duals was definitely a major part of the problem. It now Dynos at 79.69 hp with 93.38 torque. I'll get the dyno sheet and post.

Its about 70 miles to home. I could set the cruise at 62 mph in 6th gear about 2300 rpm and pull most hills, roll on throttle and pick up speed. 5th gear no problem at all.

This is with only me. Mostly it is with my wife also and sometimes a trailer. As well as it runs now , I don't think it will be a problem.

The Dyno numbers still seem pretty low to me!! I would think with your configuration you should be closer to 100/100 or a little more!!

However, if your "seat of the pants" dyno is happy/satisfied that is all that really matters.

Good luck with your ride and ride safe!!

Roger

 

[msocko3]

The Dyno numbers still seem pretty low to me!! I would think with your configuration you should be closer to 100/100 or a little more!! However, if your "seat of the pants" dyno is happy/satisfied that is all that really matters. Good luck with your ride and ride safe!! Roger

I'd expect a little more torque, especially since its a 106 with heads. I got better numbers from a 103 with just a set of Wood TW555 cams, I think a 103 with the TTS-100 cam would make better numbers. Something is missing, great its running better, but something is missing. Will be interesting to see the dyno sheet.

 

[geezerglide11441]

I'd expect a little more torque, especially since its a 106 with heads. I got better numbers from a 103 with just a set of Wood TW555 cams, I think a 103 with the TTS-100 cam would make better numbers. Something is missing, great its running better, but something is missing. Will be interesting to see the dyno sheet.

Mike, I hate to mention this again, but I would most certainly check to make sure it is not "sumping" if I were him!! I can say from experience that sumping will definitely cause what he is experiencing!!

Roger

 

[T.P.]

Roger,

I did talk to the dealer about sumping. The mech did say he had looked at that when it was apart and it wasn't , I just have to take their word for it.

Mike,

The dyno sheet I received is in mph not rpm. I have a call into them to send another haven't heard back yet.

Because its a trike should the numbers be 15 to 20% lower? Another wheel on the ground?

I also haven't looked at the map on the PCV. Timing etc. Ill look at that also.

Terry

 

[T.P.]

Just went for ride on the interstate and in 6th gear about 74 mph maybe 2800 rpm nothing left unless going downhill. Still looking, I will talk with the dealer again tomorrow. Sumping? Throttle body? Tuning? Gearing?

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Just went for ride on the interstate and in 6th gear about 74 mph maybe 2800 rpm nothing left unless going downhill. Still looking, I will talk with the dealer again tomorrow. Sumping? Throttle body? Tuning? Gearing?

See if you can get all the specs on the engine build

Head CCs
Valve diameter intake and exhaust
Flow sheet on the heads .100 - .600 for both intake and exhaust
intake port size
Throttle body size ( Was it bored or did you get a larger diameter? IE: 58MM )
Injector size
During the engine setup was the piston height @ TDC measured for both cylinders? Were the pistons in the hole?
What head gasket thickness used?
What base gasket thickness used?
Cam Specs if you can get them from Steve Cole
Compression front and rear cylinder


Im thinking there is one or more issues with the assembly

If the stock Throttle body is still being used it is to small for the added air needs of the engine. May need some flow work done to it
If the stock injectors are still in use they may be at the end of the duty cycle for fuel flow

What air filter setup are you using? Could there be a restriction for air flow??

Also, this is my 2 cents on the the weight of your CSC trike kit. I think it is a heavy setup. I would call them and ask them how much does a Harley trike weight with your kit?

The added weight with the wind resistance could be a factor as well.

My own experience with a 103, head work done and a 2 into 1 exhaust with a tune on it before the Motortrike kit was added. My trike was not a speedster once the trike kit was added. It could not do much in 6th gear itself. Steep enough grade and I was dropping back to 4th gear.

 

[geezerglide11441]

I'm going to make an assumption, the base map in the ECM is a stage 1 for the 103. With that assumption, and considering it is now a 106 with cams and much better flowing heads, I think your tune is jacked up. Who ever tuned it gave it a lick and a promise. Some of the reasons I think they didn't do it right are, from looking at the screen shots you provided in the other post. I would have expected to see more fuel adjustments across the whole range, the 2nd thing is timing. They could have split the timing into front and rear, you don't have to have just one timing table for both cylinders. The front and rear cylinder never have the same timing curves, to do so from a tuning stand point is just lazy and doing a half assed job.

I'll bet the person who tuned it has maybe 2 hours tops in that tune, if that. To tune that build properly it should take around 4 hours or more. The last time I saw a 2 hour wonder tune, it pinged and ran hot. The person who tuned that left power and torque on the table, someone who knows what they are doing, and wants to do a good job will get more out of that build.

I'm not sure who the tuning dealer is, I see a couple possibilities if you want to check them out. http://www.harleyofmasoncity.com/ http://www.mcgrathpowersports.com/

Another one is Top Gear Performance LLC 405 1st Ave SW
Cedar Rapids, IA 52404
319-270-7747

According to Dynojet all 3 have a Trike dyno which is the DJ250ix. If you would talk with McGrath or Top Gear, I would ask them how many Harley Twin cam bikes or trikes they have tuned. You want someone who knows how to tune a Harley.

:Agree: 100%, good post Mike!!!

Roger

 

[msocko3]

Mike, I hate to mention this again, but I would most certainly check to make sure it is not "sumping" if I were him!! I can say from experience that sumping will definitely cause what he is experiencing!!

Roger

You might be right, the mechanic could have screwed the pooch and pinched an o-ring.

- - - Updated - - -

See if you can get all the specs on the engine build

Head CCs
Valve diameter intake and exhaust
Flow sheet on the heads .100 - .600 for both intake and exhaust
intake port size
Throttle body size ( Was it bored or did you get a larger diameter? IE: 58MM )
Injector size
During the engine setup was the piston height @ TDC measured for both cylinders? Were the pistons in the hole?
What head gasket thickness used?
What base gasket thickness used?
Cam Specs if you can get them from Steve Cole
Compression front and rear cylinder


Im thinking there is one or more issues with the assembly

If the stock Throttle body is still being used it is to small for the added air needs of the engine. May need some flow work done to it
If the stock injectors are still in use they may be at the end of the duty cycle for fuel flow

What air filter setup are you using? Could there be a restriction for air flow??

Also, this is my 2 cents on the the weight of your CSC trike kit. I think it is a heavy setup. I would call them and ask them how much does a Harley trike weight with your kit?

The added weight with the wind resistance could be a factor as well.

My own experience with a 103, head work done and a 2 into 1 exhaust with a tune on it before the Motortrike kit was added. My trike was not a speedster once the trike kit was added. It could not do much in 6th gear itself. Steep enough grade and I was dropping back to 4th gear.

The heads are screaming eagle heads part no 16500013A cnc ported 1.875 intake 1.575 exhaust, head gasket used .030. If I remember right he is using a AN Big sucker air cleaner.

I'll be shocked if the dealer can answer most of the questions, seems most are box openers and parts changers.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Sumping would be easy to check. Pull the drain plug on the bottom of the engine case and measure the amount of oil drained. More than 2-3 ounce would indicate something is amiss

 

[geezerglide11441]

Sumping would be easy to check. Pull the drain plug on the bottom of the engine case and measure the amount of oil drained. More than 2-3 ounce would indicate something is amiss

:Agree: Yup!! Works for me!!

Roger

 

[T.P.]

Rode about 20 miles, then pulled the sump plug. There was a little less than 3 oz.

CSC said the weight of the trike kit adds 300 lbs.

I did look at the ign timing, where it was -4 on the cylinders it is now 3. Both cylinders are the same.

I do continue to go back to C&C because they are the dealer who triked it and I haven't found another dyno wide enough for a CSC trike.

Im going to try one more time then maybe sell some parts and let the grandsons use some tannerite .

 

[msocko3]

Rode about 20 miles, then pulled the sump plug. There was a little less than 3 oz.

CSC said the weight of the trike kit adds 300 lbs.

I did look at the ign timing, where it was -4 on the cylinders it is now 3. Both cylinders are the same.

I do continue to go back to C&C because they are the dealer who triked it and I haven't found another dyno wide enough for a CSC trike.

Im going to try one more time then maybe sell some parts and let the grandsons use some tannerite .

Any Dynojet DJ250ix should hold your trike, I can't help but feel you have a 2 fold problem going on. One is the folks tuning it, the other is the tuner. The PCV isn't the best for larger than stage 2 builds, yours is a bit more than a stage 2. Here are a couple dyno's I found kind of close to you.

Top Gear Performance LLC
405 1st Ave SW
Cedar Rapids, IA 52404
319-270-7747

McGrath Power Sports
4645 Center Point Road
Cedar Rapids, IA 52402
319-393-1205

Harley Davidson of Mason City
706 South Federal
Mason City, IA 50401
866-786-4362

This is my dads 09 Triglide on a DJ250ix, there is room to spare on the drums.

 

[dirtdobber]

I would think that would determine who did the tuning.
i have had great results with the pcv with smaller bore engines, 103,106.
being a trike you will lose some numbers, depends on the bike.
Ss106, wide glide, ss585 cams, stage 3 heads, 112hp with 118 TQ.

 

[msocko3]

I would think that would determine who did the tuning.
i have had great results with the pcv with smaller bore engines, 103,106.
being a trike you will lose some numbers, depends on the bike.
Ss106, wide glide, ss585 cams, stage 3 heads, 112hp with 118 TQ.

I agree a trike won't make the same numbers as a 2 wheeler, but when its struggling to reach speeds in the 70mph range, somethings up. My dads 09 Triglide with just a simple cam change is making better numbers than the OP's larger bore and superior heads build. You can get them tuned with the PCV, they're just not going to be as smooth and make as much HP and Torque, your going to leave some on the table. Tuners such as the TTS and Power Vision, even the SEPST can help the tune turn out so much better.

I primarily tune with the TTS, I've used the SEPST a little. I've also worked with the PCIII and the PCV, I've just been underwhelmed with them.

 

[dirtdobber]

Yes the OP needs something done. That is really low on HP/TQ. My stock 103 free as more than enough power as compared to what he has posted.
i haven't given any advice at this point, not worth talking about any way.
I am thinking he has some bad head work done, with a bad tune. When building a engine you have to look at one direction. HP or TQ not both. If you build it with TQ in mind the HP will be with it, just a lot more TQ than HP. With a lot of new cams available it's hard to do a base build knowing what the results will be up front. My 113 was built for TQ but got 124.8 HP and 148.7 TQ. I am using the ss585 gear cams but the TQ came from the heads a low end. 108 TQ at 1,500 rpms.
did he add a performance oil pump. Se cam pla. My point is the OP has left out a lot. He should post everything that was done in detail this would help finding a solution. He is listening to the same folks and getting no where. He should have 100/100 I would think. They are just changing parts. I would start all over checking clearances and other parts like the heads. It could as simple as the wrong cam, TQ came, instead use a HP cam that hits later on, around 3 grand. On built motors I use the TTS. Touring I do go with a pcv.

 

[T.P.]

Ok, this is what I have...
103 bored to a 106
Screaming eagle heads. CNC ported. 16500013A
.030 head gasket
TTS 100 cams. I will say the cams are very noisey.
2-1-2 exhaust with modified heritage mufflers (dyno with CSC mufflers and lost 3ft lbs torque)

The dealer is not sold on the cams and spoke with Steve with TTS. He did say some of the installed cams were noisey and wasn't sure why.

I'm sure the dealer wants to change the cams and due to the noise I'm close. But haven't talked to him and their not open until Tues.

I do agree I need another opinion on the tuning and dyno. I also am not against another tuner.

 

[dirtdobber]

I don't heave a se catalog, its in the shop, is these 103 or 110?
you ,did use a se cam plate with performance oil pump, right?
Im think your build is built in 2 directions, head work mid upper rpms as where the cams are a low end cam.
i have seen some strange out comes with a few engines built that way. I would have had the heads done as a stage 4 With TQ in mind. They do things a little different for TQ.
Throttle body, was it changed? Injectors?

Wiyh your build you don't need to change them. They will do just fine.
Have you contacted a pro builder? I would consider hollering at one if you haven't. I have to drive 4 hours one way to get to my builder but it is well worth it. I had a 2012 cvo street glide. Dd the normal things to cool it down.

Just couldnt get thebtune right, it was good but not where it should be.

I made a lot of changes trying to get the HP/TQ up.

My tuner called and said bring it in i want to try it ,again on my dime. He got it up finally, 95 HP and 108 TQ. he cleared all the settings and started over. We had it under a hour. It was right, cooler with stump pulling power in, every gear. I'm doing a country boys stage one on my free. Low cost. I will have it on the Dyno around Wednesday if he can work me in by then. I can tell more about some of the numbers I have been reading about.
remember Dyno numbers are only for tuning nothing more.

Bragging rights, maybe to some.
hope you get it.

You have spent a lot on it, it's time to enjoy the labor.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Ok, this is what I have...
103 bored to a 106
Screaming eagle heads. CNC ported. 16500013A
.030 head gasket
TTS 100 cams. I will say the cams are very noisey.
2-1-2 exhaust with modified heritage mufflers (dyno with CSC mufflers and lost 3ft lbs torque)

The dealer is not sold on the cams and spoke with Steve with TTS. He did say some of the installed cams were noisey and wasn't sure why.

I'm sure the dealer wants to change the cams and due to the noise I'm close. But haven't talked to him and their not open until Tues.

I do agree I need another opinion on the tuning and dyno. I also am not against another tuner.

T.P.

Your post is not accurate according to TTS. They asked me to have you call them so you can get the true and real story about your tune and cams.

BTW...

I have one of the first sets of the TTS-100 cams and they are as quiet as a church mouse.

I did hear of a Touring bike that had a ticking sound after the install of the TTS-100 cams but it turned out to be a bad lifter...


Regards,


Wiz

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I see one potential issue with the power. The modified Heritage Mufflers. I'm betting there is a big restriction in the exhaust flow.

Valve train noise is possible with the valve springs Harley installs in their SE heads that are generally regared as overkill in seat pressure and nose over on the TDC of the cams

 

[T.P.]

T.P.

Your post is not accurate according to TTS. They asked me to have you call them so you can get the true and real story about your tune and cams.

BTW... I have one of the first sets of the TTS-100 cams and they are as quiet as a church mouse. I did hear of a Touring bike that had a ticking sound after the install of the TTS-100 cams but it turned out to be a bad lifter...


Regards,


Wiz

I called Steve at TTS and took notes for about a hour. Really nice person to talk with. Gave me a couple mech. suggestions to look for. Thanks for letting me know..

- - - Updated - - -

I see one potential issue with the power. The modified Heritage Mufflers. I'm betting there is a big restriction in the exhaust flow.

Valve train noise is possible with the valve springs Harley installs in their SE heads that are generally regared as overkill in seat pressure and nose over on the TDC of the cams

When they dynoed the last time, it was with heritage mufflers and CSC mufflers.

The heritage dynoed better than the CSC.

Could be both are a restriction.

This is still the best it has ran since triked.

Could be valve train noise I'm hearing. I'll let someone smarter than me listen.

 

[T.P.]

Any Dynojet DJ250ix should hold your trike, I can't help but feel you have a 2 fold problem going on. One is the folks tuning it, the other is the tuner. The PCV isn't the best for larger than stage 2 builds, yours is a bit more than a stage 2.





Here are a couple dyno's I found kind of close to you.

Top Gear Performance LLC
405 1st Ave SW
Cedar Rapids, IA 52404
319-270-7747

McGrath Power Sports
4645 Center Point Road
Cedar Rapids, IA 52402
319-393-1205

Harley Davidson of Mason City
706 South Federal
Mason City, IA 50401
866-786-4362

This is my dads 09 Triglide on a DJ250ix, there is room to spare on the drums.

View attachment 28163

I called these plus a couple others but still haven't found someone else to dyno.

Actually top gear never answered but McGrath hasn't heard of them.



I feel like they are getting closer on the tuning but not there yet.

This is
where it is now. Before it was -4 on the tuning and now a 3. As Steve pointed out the AFR is lean from 2800 - 4300 rpm. When looking at the target AFR the 14.1 seems lean. I can adjust that and the timing but I'm just guessing. Is this where a different tuner other than PCV comes in?

I will ask C&C about the AFR and timing.



It does appear their not going far enough but I'm not a tuner.

 

[msocko3]

I called these plus a couple others but still haven't found someone else to dyno. Actually top gear never answered but McGrath hasn't heard of them.

I feel like they are getting closer on the tuning but not there yet. This is
where it is now. Before it was -4 on the tuning and now a 3. As Steve pointed out the AFR is lean from 2800 - 4300 rpm. When looking at the target AFR the 14.1 seems lean. I can adjust that and the timing but I'm just guessing. Is this where a different tuner other than PCV comes in?

I will ask C&C about the AFR and timing.

It does appear their not going far enough but I'm not a tuner.

The difference between the PCV and a good flash tuner such as the TTS is the ability to choose and modify a base map more suited for the build.

The PCV just connects between the ECM and the harness from the ECM and modifies the signal coming and going, more or less it tricks the ECM to thinking things are different than what they really are. The timing is a shot in the dark, when you look at that 3, it is the PCV adding 3 to the timing that is contained in the base map in the ECM. That map could be the stock engine map, or it could be a Stage 1 map.

One of the biggest problems you have is the dealer doing your engine work, has turned it into a science project. Which is a miss mash or pieces and parts that don't necessarily compliment each other.

 

[Steve Cole]

I feel like they are getting closer on the tuning but not there yet. This is where it is now. Before it was -4 on the tuning and now a 3. As Steve pointed out the AFR is lean from 2800 - 4300 rpm. When looking at the target AFR the 14.1 seems lean. I can adjust that and the timing but I'm just guessing. Is this where a different tuner other than PCV comes in?

If your willing to adjust on the PC-V yourself the worst you will have to do is put the old settings back in it if you do not like/feel how the changes you make did. Just save what's in it now and add about 5% more fuel to the WOT area from 2800 - 4300 in both cylinders. Only do one change at a time and then test ride.

If it improves it then you know to continue with it, if not go back to one step before another change in tuning.

TAKE YOUR TIME WITH IT.

I would also look at adding 5% more fuel down below 2100 RPM as a second test. Remember these are WOT changes NOT everywhere This is because they did not seem to run the testing down at low RPM and I would rather have the engine to the rich side for this type of butt dyno tuning testing. Once the fuel seems to have no effect back up to the one before and then you would switch to adding a few degrees more timing and then pay attention to the trike. If you here pinging back off the throttle, and take it back out again in the RPM area your heard it. Its kind of hunt and peck way of doing it, but thats all you have in your position.

You payed someone to do this work but...............