Cams vs torque and hp/?

[T.P.]

I have a 2010 ultra triked with a california sidecar trike kit. This was done last year. Since then, and 3 cams later, it still doesn't seem to have any power/torque in 5th and 6th gear. Originally it was a 103 with 204 cams. Next was a 106 with andrews 54 and 4*advance gear. Now it is a 106 with screaming eagle heads (first mech. over ported heads) and TTS 100. Dyno is HP 76.23, torque 81.87. Where I seem to not have any power/torque is in 5th and 6th gear. 5th at 55mph will not maintain speed up hills. 6th at 70 mph will not gain any speed.

By the tach, cams seems to come in around 2800 to 3000 rpm.

The harley mech. would like to install a different cam. Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[rhino 2]

Something don't seem right, My T/G 11 [103] with just true duels and stage 1 no cams will pull hills in 5th and in 6th at 60mph will go to 90+ :Shrug:

 

[Gorilla]

I have a 2010 ultra triked with a california sidecar trike kit. This was done last year. Since then, and 3 cams later, it still doesn't seem to have any power/torque in 5th and 6th gear. Originally it was a 103 with 204 cams. Next was a 106 with andrews 54 and 4*advance gear. Now it is a 106 with screaming eagle heads (first mech. over ported heads) and TTS 100. Dyno is HP 76.23, torque 81.87. Where I seem to not have any power/torque is in 5th and 6th gear. 5th at 55mph will not maintain speed up hills. 6th at 70 mph will not gain any speed.

By the tach, cams seems to come in around 2800 to 3000 rpm.

The harley mech. would like to install a different cam. Any comments would be appreciated.

T.P.

What is left out of this posting is what have you done to tune these combinations? Also what gearing are you running in the drive: front and rear teeth. With what you have done mechanically you should have a great setup. I have a 110 with the TTS 100 cams tuned with a TTS module by an expert. I have 32 front sprocket with a 70 rear.

My TRI will accelerate going up hill in 6th gear on cruise at 65 MPH. My torque comes in well down in the 2000 rpm range not way up at 2800 rpms. I think there is something very wrong in your tuning.

 

[dirtdobber]

First thing I would do is have it dyno tuned. A bad tune can destroy any upgraded power, like cams etc....
I would have used the TTS 100 cam. It makes some serious power all the way up.
Checking your tune to make sure it's right an dif it is off it may take care of it.
Our feewheeler it's almost as good as a 2 wheel version and it is factory stock.

 

[Livin2Ride]

T.P.

What is left out of this posting is what have you done to tune these combinations? Also what gearing are you running in the drive: front and rear teeth. With what you have done mechanically you should have a great setup. I have a 110 with the TTS 100 cams tuned with a TTS module by an expert. I have 32 front sprocket with a 70 rear. My TRI will accelerate going up hill in 6th gear on cruise at 65 MPH. My torque comes in well down in the 2000 rpm range not way up at 2800 rpms. I think there is something very wrong in your tuning.

I'm with Gorilla on this one. I'm running a 103 with 2-1-2 headers, better mufflers, A/C and the TTS-100 cams and a TTS tune tweaked by the same guy that did his. I can run 2 up pulling my Bustec trailer with 100 + pounds onboard in 6th gear at 50-55 MPH and slowly roll into the throttle all the way up to 85-90. Uphill or level road doesn't matter that much.

My guess is you are geared way too high and maybe your tune is off too.

 

[T.P.]

I agree something is wrong, it should run real well. I am stock on gearing. I think that is 32 tooth. I'll look up the specs on California sidecar. I will try to attach the dyno sheet. The 59.90 on hp is with the over ported heads. The 76.23 is after the screaming eagle heads and tts 100 cams. Could the O2 sensors be a problem? I do have the power commander v with auto tune. Also CSC now has a 30 tooth sprocket. Im unsure of what to do next.

 

[geezerglide11441]

I agree something is wrong, it should run real well. I am stock on gearing. I think that is 32 tooth. I'll look up the specs on California sidecar. I will try to attach the dyno sheet. The 59.90 on hp is with the over ported heads. The 76.23 is after the screaming eagle heads and tts 100 cams. Could the O2 sensors be a problem? I do have the power commander v with auto tune. Also CSC now has a 30 tooth sprocket. Im unsure of what to do next.

:Agree: with some of the other posters, it most likely is the tune!!

However, you might have your dealer check to make sure it is not Sumping!!

Sumping is when there is too much oil in the pan and the flywheel has to trudge thru it - i.e. kinda like trying to run in waist deep water. I had a friend with a 2010 TriGlide with NO power either and what they found was that it was Sumping. When it was fixed, it ran like it should have for a 103" motor.

Good Luck with finding the issue and getting it corrected, whatever it is. Your HP/TQ numbers are extremely low in my opinion.

Roger

 

[DK Custom Products]

As you know, something is amiss.

Below is a chart of a stock 103, the only things done to it is a DK Custom Performance Plus Stage I. Stock cams, stock gearing, etc.

It's hitting 97 ft. lbs of torque. You should be substantially above that.

One thing (not the only thing) that may be happening is your clutch may be slipping a bit. Is it the stock clutch spring? If so, getting a stronger spring may help.

A strong running engine is the result of many things all working well together.

You did not mention what exhaust you're running, nor for that matter, what air cleaner. Both of those can have a big plus or negative to your performance.

Also, too much heat is a killer of power. This may be something you are experiencing on the road. When the engine hits a certain temp, the power will get very sluggish. But I doubt you were getting too hot during the dyno runs that are showing the low power.

Besides looking at the tune (btw, I had a PC V before going to the Power Vision.

I found the PV with basic autotune to be a big improvement, as you can see in the above chart), you may be losing a lot with either too restricted of an exhaust or to much reversion on an opened up exhaust.

I would NOT get another set of cams. Almost certainly the issue(s) are elsewhere.

Kevin

 

[Sloufoot]

Something else to consider is the compression. Do a leak down test on the cylinders. Also you didn't mention the exhaust you are running. The size of the baffles make a lot of difference on bottom end performance.
But you are way low HP & torque for that combination. With those heads you should be well over 100hp. But keep in mind the trike will show less than two wheel bikes.
This from a two wheel with the 103 with TTS-100 cams stock heads:

 

[NHBAGGER]

Sloufoot, that is one of the best TTS100 runs I have seen!

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

You want pulling power. The pulleys need to be swapped to a 30/70 combo along with the belt.

California sidecar trike is heavy. The mechanical leverage of the 30/70 combo will give you plenty of torque to pull the hills in 5th and cruise easily in 6th

 

[T.P.]

I have V&H true duals with heritage soft tail mufflers. They were custom fit due to the room under the CSC. It ran the same with the CSC mufflers. Air cleaner is a big sucker. 1st thru 4th runs great. In 5th and 6th , 3/4 to WOT it sounds like sucking air with no fuel.

 

[rhino 2]

I have V&H true duals with heritage soft tail mufflers. They were custom fit due to the room under the CSC. It ran the same with the CSC mufflers. Air cleaner is a big sucker. 1st thru 4th runs great. In 5th and 6th , 3/4 to WOT it sounds like sucking air with no fuel

Shot in the dark here, Try blocking some of the air filter off, It will only take a few minuets, Then take it out on the road and see what happens. I'm thinking your air to fuel mix is way off on the air side.?:Shrug:

 

[NHBAGGER]

Take another look at the dyno run he posted. The AFR is nice and flat and right where it should be. This is not a gearing or tuning issue. The numbers he posted are like something you would see from a stock 88"? hard to believe those are the numbers for a 107 with cams and heads. Wrong bike/dyno sheet combo possible?

 

[Sloufoot]

Sloufoot, that is one of the best TTS100 runs I have seen!

That is one released before the cams were sold. Got it from Wiz.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Something else to consider is the compression. Do a leak down test on the cylinders. Also you didn't mention the exhaust you are running. The size of the baffles make a lot of difference on bottom end performance.
But you are way low HP & torque for that combination. With those heads you should be well over 100hp. But keep in mind the trike will show less than two wheel bikes.
This from a two wheel with the 103 with TTS-100 cams stock heads:

Very good point on doing the leak down. That is the place to start. Little or no cost and a very likely culprit.

The AFR looks good, the power is nice and even (ignoring the threadiness, which is sometimes a sign of a slipping clutch). Someone who tuned the AFR that good, almost certainly did a good job with the timing.

Low compression from a bad top end or sticking ACR's is a significant possibility.

Kevin

 

[msocko3]

I agree something is wrong, it should run real well. I am stock on gearing. I think that is 32 tooth. I'll look up the specs on California sidecar. I will try to attach the dyno sheet. The 59.90 on hp is with the over ported heads. The 76.23 is after the screaming eagle heads and tts 100 cams. Could the O2 sensors be a problem? I do have the power commander v with auto tune. Also CSC now has a 30 tooth sprocket. Im unsure of what to do next.

What screamin eagle heads are you running? Has anyone done a compression test, how does it run, does it run smooth? There have been several good suggestions on what may be the cause of your problem. I would start with the basics, a simple compression test will tell a pretty good story to start with.

 

[T.P.]

I checked the compression today. I did not do a leak down test. With it hot the front was 165, the back was 155. Is that to much difference? The screaming eagle heads are part no 16500013A cnc ported 1.875 intake 1.575 exhaust. Gasket used .030. It starts well. When giving it throttle, at one point it seems like a little too much, back off just barely and seems to pick up a little. Still in 6th hard to get past 70 mph without downshifting.

On a dyno do you need a map to start with or does the dyno make its own map? I think its in the timing, when looking at the ign. timing on the power commander it is -4 from 1500 rpm to 3500 rpm at 2% throttle to 40% throttle. All other columns are 0. I'm not sure if this is a typical ign. or if this is how the dyno set it up. Maybe another tuner?

The gearing from CSC is the same as stock gearing. They do have a 30 tooth sprocket option. I'm just holding off thinking it should run with what I have done to this point.

 

[Sloufoot]

With the PC-V tuner the map you see is the tuner map & not the map in the ECM. The PC-V modifies the information that the ECM sees so it reacts to the engine in a modified state.
If the map you are looking at says -4 at a point, it means to subtract 4* timing at that point.
If the map says 4*, it means + 4* at that point.
If the map says 0*, it doesn't try to modify the timing at that point.
These values are added or subtracted from the map in the ECM.
Your original map in the ECM might want say 32* at one point & the PC-V tells it to -4* so you end up with 28*.
The same with fuel settings. This is why you need to know what your original map is. Also what you are trying to set things to.
What map number are you looking at?
With the auto tune you can run a log & look at it to find where part of your tune is working. With your dyno chart you look like the settings are fairly close. This is why I don't think you are having trouble with the tune.
It sounds like your cams might be retarded, but why with all the different cams, unless the crank sprocket is wrong......Did all your cams come with sprockets installed? But I'm no expert.

 

[msocko3]

I checked the compression today. I did not do a leak down test. With it hot the front was 165, the back was 155. Is that to much difference? The screaming eagle heads are part no 16500013A cnc ported 1.875 intake 1.575 exhaust. Gasket used .030. It starts well. When giving it throttle, at one point it seems like a little too much, back off just barely and seems to pick up a little. Still in 6th hard to get past 70 mph without downshifting.

On a dyno do you need a map to start with or does the dyno make its own map? I think its in the timing, when looking at the ign. timing on the power commander it is -4 from 1500 rpm to 3500 rpm at 2% throttle to 40% throttle. All other columns are 0. I'm not sure if this is a typical ign. or if this is how the dyno set it up. Maybe another tuner?

The gearing from CSC is the same as stock gearing. They do have a 30 tooth sprocket option. I'm just holding off thinking it should run with what I have done to this point.

When doing the compression test, did you disable the automatic compression realeases? and open the throttle body throttle blade all the way? Since its a throttle by wire you have to pull the air cleaner disconnect the electrical and then use something to hold the blade open.

The compression you are getting is way low, it should be in the 200 range, unless the cams are severely retarded as Sloufoot suggested. You need to address why the compression is so low before turning to the tune, its lower than a stock 103 with stock cams, that low of a compression would make the performance real weak.

 

[T.P.]

Backed up, regrouped. Disabled compression releases, opened throttle body manually, now on the front cylinder 225, rear 222.

I'm not sure what map they started with when it was on the dyno. When looking at maps for the power commander v , I don't know where to start with the TTS 100 cams. The dealer was closed today, I'll ask him tomorrow what map they started with.

 

[msocko3]

Backed up, regrouped. Disabled compression releases, opened throttle body manually, now on the front cylinder 225, rear 222.

I'm not sure what map they started with when it was on the dyno. When looking at maps for the power commander v , I don't know where to start with the TTS 100 cams. The dealer was closed today, I'll ask him tomorrow what map they started with.

Those are some realistic numbers, if you have the map they tuned I would be interested in seeing it. Most tuners will provide you with a copy of the completed map, if not you could download it from the PCV.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Backed up, regrouped. Disabled compression releases, opened throttle body manually, now on the front cylinder 225, rear 222.

I'm not sure what map they started with when it was on the dyno. When looking at maps for the power commander v , I don't know where to start with the TTS 100 cams. The dealer was closed today, I'll ask him tomorrow what map they started with.

That's some high compression. Surprised you didn't report it's a ping monster under heavy load. Heat would be another issue you may have to deal with.

I agree with MSOCK3. Let's see the fun I sheet

 

[Gorilla]

Actually those are the numbers that TTS was looking for. I was told that the compression would be in the 220 area.

 

[msocko3]

Actually those are the numbers that TTS was looking for. I was told that the compression would be in the 220 area.

:Agree:The TTS-100 has a pretty high CCP, from what I've heard it has a pretty early intake close.

 

[geezerglide11441]

:Agree:The TTS-100 has a pretty high CCP, from what I've heard it has a pretty early intake close.

Earlier than the SE 255s?? Do you by chance have the total spec sheet for this cam??

Roger

 

[msocko3]

Earlier than the SE 255s?? Do you by chance have the total spec sheet for this cam??

Roger

Just a touch later than the SE255, I've seen results from someone who measured the cam in a test fixture. It's out there, but I would rather not share it, kind of a moral thing with me.

 

[geezerglide11441]

Just a touch later than the SE255, I've seen results from someone who measured the cam in a test fixture. It's out there, but I would rather not share it, kind of a moral thing with me.

Understand, thanks anyway!! I have never been a fan of the SE 255s and was wondering where this cam stood regarding the intake closing event. Also was wondering about the duration and overlap, am not considering the info for purchasing or COPYING, just curious.

Thanks again for the come back!!

Roger

 

[T.P.]

I talked with the dyno person. He explained how the dyno is more accurate than a person and it will create its own mapping, didn't really give me a map. I saved the map from the pcv and will try to post. The ignition is the same on both cylinders.

 

[T.P.]