Given that Harley increased the cubes and essentially used the same cooling strategies for the Twin-Cooled M8, it stands to reason that the M8 cylinders are going to be subjected to pretty harsh conditions in stock form. That is why I opted for the larger Cool-Master fans than the smaller Mighty Mites that Love Jugs is coming out with. You experienced ovaled cylinders on a TC103 with the Ward fans operating and I wanted to make sure that I could get as much cool air to the jugs as possible. I don't ride in parades but run the trike hard when going across the country and 8-10 hour riding days is not all that unusual for my tastes.
A Couple of days with a Milwaukee-Eight Freewheeler...
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Given that Harley increased the cubes and essentially used the same cooling strategies for the Twin-Cooled M8, it stands to reason that the M8 cylinders are going to be subjected to pretty harsh conditions in stock form. That is why I opted for the larger Cool-Master fans than the smaller Mighty Mites that Love Jugs is coming out with. You experienced ovaled cylinders on a TC103 with the Ward fans operating and I wanted to make sure that I could get as much cool air to the jugs as possible. I don't ride in parades but run the trike hard when going across the country and 8-10 hour riding days is not all that unusual for my tastes.
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Just saw this, but heading out the door...late for an appointment...but wanted to correct some info.
The self destruct of the Twin Cam (ovaled out cylinders & more) was BEFORE I had the Wards Parts Werks fans.
Kevin
Kevin, Very important distinction, thank you! You must have had the difficulties with your previous Tri Glide because you had mentioned that you had owned the Wards fans across two bikes. Based on your report, the only reason I can see for not getting the Mighty Mites might be the rpm of the fans (13,500 vs. 8500) since Dave Sandel, the invenstor, suggested that the cooling efficiency was within 1% of the new Cool-Master fans. However, there was one post where the reporter stated that Dave had recommended the Cool-Master fans for maximum cooling and that aspect of maximum cooling drove my decision making to get those particular fans. That, and I am noise sensitive and didn't want to drown out the reduced mechanical sounds of my new M8 engine with auxiliary fan noise. Oddly, where the original Love Jugs were not appealing to my aesthetic tastes, the new Cool-Master fans seems to be quite complimentary to the look of the M8 engine. Funny how I now think that the Mighty Mites and/or Werks fans look a bit smallish now. Go figure:xzqxz:.
Back in my drag racing days [63 to 69] on hot days i would use a cool can on my cars, And that would cut 2/10 of a second off my ET's, I realize that would be in-practal on a Trike/Bike..But cold fuel is free horsepower...Something to think about....:Shrug:
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Yeah, my '11 top end self destructed, and was replaced under warranty, after riding it stock. Once replaced, that is when I started figuring out ways to cool it down. One of the things I did was get some Wards Parts Werks fans.
I am still hoping to get my hands on some cool masters and mighty mites in order to do some testing on them.
Yep, anything to cool down the intake charge will give more power.
Kevin
Kevin, I wish I was not so paranoid about my warranty given that the M8 in the Tri Glide actually runs slower at top end than my 2016 TC103 did due to how the two engines make power. For the braver folks that get some direction from folks like yourself and get a decent tune, I think the M8 has the potential to be a screamer. Thankfully, I have a super-fast race car that will allow me all the speed kicks I need but am a bit surprised on how fast the M8 TGU runs out of steam. Downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option because of the torque/power curves you have shown of the engine. I remember last year out West, high up in the mountains, having to downshift my TC103 TGU to maintain speed going up some very steep mountains with 80mph posted speed limits.
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
I SAY, stop worrying about things, ride it get an extended warranty IMO BEST MONEY SPENT
Jack, I am with you on your sentiments. However, since I got a MOCO ESP, the mods you got would be a non-starter. It is fully detailed in the contract and I personally don't have deep pockets to challenge them on the Magnuson Act . However, that being said, there are many aftermarket insurance programs that would cover mods and the dealership that I bought my trike from also uses those folks when someone wants to mod the heck out of their bike/trike.
Capt. Bob,
I almost agreed on a purchase of the 2017 TGU tonight over the phone. But I decided to wait a while to get some money transferred.
I'm nervous to see you're feeling like it's under powered. It's "running out of steam" and "downshifting to 5th with the M8 is not an option". I don't get it? Is the M8 lame?
Also I was told the rear shocks are changed out from the air shocks to better shocks that are mechanically adjustable. Is that true on your M8?
They want around $9500.00 trade for my '16. If I make the trade and it's still a hot ride for me and my passenger and does not have any more power than what I have now, I'm going to be ripped off.
What do you think? I need you and Kevin to make this decision for me! lol
Oh and I almost forgot, did yours come standard with a fan powered oil cooler? And why did you choose to not use the HD cooling fan?
Thanks,
Brian
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Brian, If you think me or Kevin is going to make your decision for you involving almost $10K, you are dreaming:xzqxz: The M8 makes its power at a lower and somewhat wider rpm band and therefore to me and the seat of my pants, makes power where it is generally most useful and more fun. Not being able to exceed 100mph on a trike should not really be a big deal. One would wonder why any rational person would get a heavy trike just to go at or over a ton?
Twin-cooled TC103 and M8 Tri Glides don't come with oil coolers. The HD "cooling fan" is a device that reportedly was designed to take away heat from the passenger and I have been hearing that they are not all that effective for the task.
The felt heat on the M8-powered TGU is significantly less here in my hot Florida climes than the 2016 TC103 I had. However, since HD moved the Cat back on the pipe, I suspect that the felt heat may be a bit more for the rear passenger? I have not ridden my bride on my 2017 yet so do not know what she would think about the differences in felt heat for the passenger.
These bikes whether it be the TC103 or the new M8 run pretty hot and the Love Jugs Cool-Master fans really seem to be taming the operating temps which to me is critical in maintaining long-term viability of the engine and its continued level of factory-delivered performance.
Because of the way the TC103 makes power, out West I was having to downshift to 5th to maintain momentum on some really steep mountain roads. I think that the M8 will pull up those hills a bit stronger because the power does not seem to fall off until about 3600 rpm. The TC103's make their power at higher rpm's but seem to have a bit less torque and so require downshifting when going up huge mountains. When I am climbing small hills in North Florida, I have noticed that my M8 pulls harder up the same hills that my stock TC103 were losing steam on with throttle roll on just causing more intake noise but no more go/getup.
I suspect that in time, Kevin/Devin and others are going to come up with strategies to wake up this single cam M8 engine far more than what comes out of the factory.
I was fortunate to pay significantly less than what your dealer has proposed as a trade but do not know what condition your 2016 trike is in and what you have done to it. Mine looked just about new but had almost 15k miles on the clock with a brand-new front tire and no scratches/dents of any kind. I had everything but the top case luggage rack transferred to my new trike.
I may not be the best referral for upgrade because I just really like the relaxed ride that my Tri Glide provides. If I want to set speed records, I can hop in my 300hp 1400 pound sports car and blow doors off Z06 vets in the twisties and most straight aways as long as it is not the latest iteration.
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My 16 is still like new with 7,000 miles on it. I've added a bumper, luggage rack, back rest, tank lift and cooling wings from DK Custom.
Perhaps I need some quotes from a few other dealers if you got a much better offer for your '16.
Perhaps I need some quotes from a few other dealers if you got a much better offer for your '16.
I shared with Brian that you can go to: seedealercost.com and look under the PowerSports section to see what the dealer cost and list prices were for the 2016/2017 TGU's and FW's. This gives one a better starting point in deciding how to negotiate with a dealer. There are plenty of Harleys being made so you just have to be patient and fair minded and you will end up with deals that are mutually beneficial for buyer/seller.
Truthfully, after almost agreeing to the 2017 purchase I've gotten discouraged.
Here is what I hoped:
1. The trade cost would be less than quoted for a 2016 with 7,000 miles.
2. I would be convinced that the heat issues both felt and engine damaging heat would be gone. (Other forum reports are mixed as to if the heat is gone or not).
3. The new engine would not be using the "plastic" cam chain pad that has been reported to break down and do damage in the TC bikes. (Pictures I've seen are still showing some "plastic" as being there. I assume (but do not know) it can still break down and end up in the engine oil.
I was once all excited about jumping to the M8......now, not so much.
Maybe 2018 Kevin will tell me what to do. lol
Brian, Can't address the trade issues because that is really between you and the sellers you choose to deal with. However, many engine designs have to use some kind of material that may be a kind of polymer (?) to maintain chain tensions. The earlier materials Harley used did have a tendency to wear prematurely in part due to rough chains and/or inferior cam chain tensioner pad material. Harley has high level engineers who I am pretty sure have solved the cam chain tensioner material issues.
In terms of running hot, the M8 engine is going to be Harley's flagship lump for likely the next 12-15 years so I wouldn't think that there would be dramatic changes to the platform for the foreseeable future? Perception of heat is a really individual thing and everyone seems to experience it quite differently. Sort of the same as the shape of saddles where everyone has preferences and the factories have a pretty hard time pleasing an awful lot of their customers with their stock seats. Sorry that your current journey has been discouraging. I think the one dealer contact you had mentioned probably significantly soured you, given what they were proposing as a trade difference. Much good riding and enjoying whatever trike you ride. They are a hoot!
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Yeah, the M8 makes it's power early, and stays very level in top power for a longer time (wider RPM band) than the Twin Cam. With the Twinkie, we are used to the power coming on strong a bit later (and more abruptly) in the RPM's and being there for a narrower RPM band, so you can really feel the power come on. The M8, it is always just there...there is no real bump where you feel it come on.
We are early into the process of milking more power out of the M8, but I really believe there is quite a bit of potential.
We already have seen a glimpse of it with the dyno runs (and street riding) we did on Jacks Freewheeler. With the 636v and a base map, we were seeing 100 ft lbs. This is with the stock exhaust and no auto-tuning or dyno tuning.
The best we ever got out of a Twin Cam, with a Performance Plus Stage I, was 105 ft. lbs. I think the M8 has the potential to exceed that, AND have that power for a much wider rpm band.
Of course, guys doing Stage II, III, & IV's, I would think, are going to get some really great results out of the M8. Because of warranty issues, we generally don't go there. We've never seen a warranty denied due to one of our Stage I's, but we see Stage II & up getting warranty work denied on a regular basis.
Hi Brian,
1. Trade ins/new purchases are just a matter of a lot of phone work. Got to find a dealer who is motivated to make the transaction you are after....At the time when you are ready to execute.
2. Felt heat is definitely, significantly lower on the M8's. Actual engine temps do not appear to be much lower, but the M8 does a much better job of dissipating the heat than the Twin Cams. I think it is still important to cool it down for longevity.
3. Many years ago HD took care of the cam tensioner problem the earlier Twin Cams had. So unless they went backwards, I don't think it will be a problem with the M8.
Of course, the M8 is so new, it is not possible to know what the future holds as far as issues that may or may not arise. HD's warranty is very good and if it fit my overall plan, I would not hesitate to get an M8 right now.
Conversely, I don't think, for everyday riding, that there is anything wrong with the Twin Cam, once you get the known issue of heat taken care of.
So that leaves one with the question of why go to an M8 from a Twin Cam?
My own personal thoughts on this-
Not for heat. For less money than going to the M8, the heat can be corrected on a Twin Cam.
Not for more power in everyday typical riding. The Twin Cam with a good Stage I has enough power to ride well past the speed limits on any roads I know of in the USA. The only exception to this is if one is pulling a trailer with a heavy load and does not want to use the gears so much, then an M8 has an advantage there.
Not for the slightly improved suspension. For far less $ than the cost of upgrading to an M8, one can improve the Twin Cam Suspension to be far superior to the M8 suspension.
So what reasons are there?
The M8 has less vibration at an idle, and when accelerating thru the gears...some will like this, others won't.
The M8 has a broader powerband, which means less shifting is necessary to have access to full power...some will like this, others won't.
If one wants more power (their typical riding is way above what many would call everyday riding) the M8 looks to have more potential.
If one likes the feel of brute torque, the M8 is going to deliver that more than the Twin Cam. There is no practical riding reason for this, it is just more fun for some folks.
If one plays around a lot...wheelies, burn-outs, hard low speed acceleration...the Twin Cam crankshaft is vulnerable to twisting. The M8 is supposed to have that taken care of...time will tell. This is NOT an issue on the Twin Cams for 99.5% of the riders.
Another reason, that I've heard more than a few people give, is that they don't want to do the work of getting rid of the felt heat on the Twin Cam, and they don't really care about the heat that the engine experiences, so they get an M8 with less felt heat...and if there is a problem with the engine because of heat, they have a warranty.
The last reason I can think of...if one just wants to have the newest technology, the "latest & greatest", the M8 is the latest from HD.
I personally will be getting an M8 for three reasons:
1. I like the feel of torque. The more the better.
Has no practical reason, it's just fun to me.2. I'm a bit of a gearhead, so new mechanical stuff is always interesting to me.
3. For the business, we need one for continuing product development. For this reason alone, I would already have one, but am thinking there may be other changes with the '18 model year, so am waiting for that.
wow, that was a bit long winded...and I did not tell you what to do.
But did share with you some info so you can make a more informed decision.Since this post is already a book, might as well add some more info.
I will not own a Twin Cam, OR an M8 without a warranty. Way too many things that can go wrong that are expensive.
Besides my Tri-Glide I own a Twin Cam Softail. I do not intend on "upgrading" it to an M8 when the M8 Softails are available. My TC Softail does everything I want it to do, and I have it personalized exactly how I want it.
I also own two Sportster. Don't have a warranty on either, and would not get one. They are 20+ year old technology that is proven and has no issues that the new TC's & M8's have.
Kevin
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
It did go down a mile and a half per gallon if that makes sense
Kevin,
Perhaps I misunderstand, I read the link you supplied, and it reads,
"EXCLUSIONS"
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.
- Which has not been operated or maintained as specified in the owner's manual.
- Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used "off the highway," or used for racing or competition of any kind.
- Which is not manufactured to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
- Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.
- Which has been subjected to an act of God, war, riot, insurrection, nuclear contamination, natural disasters, including, but not limited to, lightning, forest fires, dust storms, hail storms, ice storms, earthquakes, or floods, or other circumstances out of Harley-Davidson's control.
- Which has been in an accident or collision or has been dropped or struck."
Now to the part you posted, that is included in:
"OTHER LIMITATIONS"
[FONT="]Other Limitations[/FONT]
[FONT="]This limited warranty does not cover:[/FONT]
- Parts and labor for normal maintenance as recommended in the owner's manual, or the replacement of parts due to normal wear and tear including, but not limited to, the following: tires, lubrication, oil and filter change, fuel system cleaning, battery maintenance, engine tune-up, spark plugs, brake, clutch, chain/belt adjustment and chain replacement.
- Cosmetic concerns that arise as a result of owner abuse, lack of proper maintenance or environmental conditions (except concerns that result from defects in factory materials or workmanship, which are covered by this limited warranty for the duration of the limited warranty period).
- Any cosmetic condition existing at the time of retail delivery that has not been documented by the authorized Harley-Davidson selling dealer prior to retail delivery.
- Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.
- Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, non-approved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
Looks to me like they covered their Butt both ways.
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Kevin,
Perhaps I misunderstand, I read the link you supplied, and it reads,
"EXCLUSIONS"
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.
- Which has not been operated or maintained as specified in the owner's manual.
- Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used "off the highway," or used for racing or competition of any kind.
- Which is not manufactured to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
- Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.
- Which has been subjected to an act of God, war, riot, insurrection, nuclear contamination, natural disasters, including, but not limited to, lightning, forest fires, dust storms, hail storms, ice storms, earthquakes, or floods, or other circumstances out of Harley-Davidson's control.
- Which has been in an accident or collision or has been dropped or struck."
Now to the part you posted, that is included in:
"OTHER LIMITATIONS"
Other Limitations
This limited warranty does not cover:
- Parts and labor for normal maintenance as recommended in the owner's manual, or the replacement of parts due to normal wear and tear including, but not limited to, the following: tires, lubrication, oil and filter change, fuel system cleaning, battery maintenance, engine tune-up, spark plugs, brake, clutch, chain/belt adjustment and chain replacement.
- Cosmetic concerns that arise as a result of owner abuse, lack of proper maintenance or environmental conditions (except concerns that result from defects in factory materials or workmanship, which are covered by this limited warranty for the duration of the limited warranty period).
- Any cosmetic condition existing at the time of retail delivery that has not been documented by the authorized Harley-Davidson selling dealer prior to retail delivery.
- Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.
- Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, non-approved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
Looks to me like they covered their Butt both ways.
In the first part you highlighted, the key word is "MAY", it does not say that it will. It is effective at putting a fear in people that it "WILL", but it does not say that it will, only that it may.
What determines if it will?
The second part that you have highlighted.
Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson part to fail.
If you add a part to the bike, and that part causes a Harley-Davidson part to fail, then that part of the bike is not covered under warranty.
All the rest of the 2nd part that you have highlighted are just examples of what kind of things that can be added that MAY cause a HD part to fail, and if it does, only then does the warranty not cover that part of the bike.
Any other understanding/interpretation of the warranty is not in keeping with federal law, court precedent, and the practices of the vast majority of Dealerships in the USA.
There are, of course, a small % of dealerships that do not adhere to the law...and it is not worth it to fight them (for most folks), better to just change dealerships.
On the other hand, there are a great number of employees at dealerships that will tell you any number of things...just the other day I heard, with my own ears, an employee at a dealership say "if the regular scheduled maintenance is not done by a HD Dealership, then the warranty on the entire bike is void."
Of course this is ridiculous, but not uncommon for an employee to say. Fortunately it is very rare for the service departments at the same dealership to actually try and deny warranty service.
Kevin
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
I am still tinkering with the M8, the best thing from DK is everything is in real time It just does not get any better than that, DK rocks I cannot thank them enough. If y'all want the best IMO go see them I will. They are simple folks, they give you the tour and treat you and your ride like family, Nuff Said, Thanks again for powering up my ride, I have been tinkering and running cooler with more mods hope to see yall @ your shop late may or early June, my Sportster to Streetbob mock up is done I hope your Sporster build is done also
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
Today I hit 42 mpg and still changing in real time. The temp hit 311 but settled back in @286 the intake temp is always less than half the head temp
Rock on DK Customs U guys are the BEST
Rock on DK Customs U guys are the BEST
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
Spark plugs are off gray in color. I know many will say u cannot read a plug, that is NOT true. With a light and an eye loop u can read the plug, it will tell u what u want if u know the secrets of reading them. I am getting 44.1 mpg as of today, I am NOT expecting much more, this is easy shifting into high gear@1850 RPM No lugging with 90 octane NO alkyhal fuel Ride Safe and keep tuned for more, Thank U D K and Rock on
RedOregon
300+ Posts
1850 rpm?????
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He has an M8, they develop a lot more torque down low than the TC's. They also seem to have stronger cranks than the TC's, so should not be vulnerable to the crank twisting like the TC's.
1850 is not out of line for cruising, low load (low throttle) situations for an M8. If you want to accelerate (move out of cruising mode) then a downshift is definitely in order to get the RPM up and less stress on the crank.
From the chart below you can see that an M8 is within spitting distance of max torque at 1750 RPM. Totally different animal than the Twin Cam.
Kevin
RedOregon
300+ Posts
Damn! Yeah that's different!
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
Yup, I can shift into 6th gear without lugging @1750, or sometimes @ 7 percent throttle
DK Custom Products
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Yes, HD did not address all the issues of the TC with the M8, BUT, it is a very interesting powerplant, and I think a big improvement over the TC.
Time will tell.
Kevin
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
Kevin I am stuck @44.2 MPG I do not think it will go much higher, However it still comes out to almost 50mpg on paper. I have not run out of gas yet
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
This past Saturday, The Redhead and I rode 164 miles. The starting air temp was in the low 90s , we were getting 44.6 MPG. The head temp never hit 303 degrees. On the last 25 miles the air temp dropped 20 degrees with rain, the head temp dropped to 280 and the mpg stayed 44.6. Most of this trip was with the cruise set @70mph, @ 7percent throttle and 2550 rpm. The M8 can be shifted to 6th gear @ or below 1800 rpm constantly with NO pinging. I would Never do this with an EVO or a Twin Cam. It takes longer rides now to ring out .1 mpg, I cannot believe this engine. It cools off 1 degree a minute after shutdown, The oil cooler fan on my trike comes on { IMO and not scientific} too early . This leads me to believe the MOCO Knows this engine runs hotter { it needs to IMO}. ALL the tests I am doing are my own observations and have no science behind them, I do know I did see temps North of 325 @ times and I do not worry about them. IMO I think SOME are NOT getting good readings from whatever devices they are using. I would like to know if y'all are using infra red or the IMO POS HD air temp gauge ? The DK CUSTOMS installed PV by Dynojet is accurate and is recording ALL the info so I can save it and copy it. I may be wrong, JMO and thanks for reading. I am going to put some city miles on today. 1 more note, my modified head breather is working GREAT, {like the EVO and TC} it is catching minor oil in the filter and drain system I have designed. I can drain it out whenever I want to inspect the oil for debris before it goes back to the oil tank. IMO this is a huge plus to see this oil and what it is carrying after it has already been filtered by { I have tested a lot of non HD filters}. So far good by what I see, the oil is not very dirty, not much in the filter/ drain, and finally I do not smell gas in the oil and it does not burn as quickly as oil from my Evo or TC, I know this from non scientific testing. DO NOT TRY THIS @home.
1 more note, my modified head breather is working GREAT, {like the EVO and TC} it is catching minor oil in the filter and drain system I have designed. I can drain it out whenever I want to inspect the oil for debris before it goes back to the oil tank. IMO this is a huge plus to see this oil and what it is carrying after it has already been filtered by { I have tested a lot of non HD filters}. So far good by what I see, the oil is not very dirty, not much in the filter/ drain, and finally I do not smell gas in the oil and it does not burn as quickly as oil from my Evo or TC, I know this from non scientific testing. DO NOT TRY THIS @home.
Jack Klarich
Gold Member
Still stuck @ 44.6 mpg, I reset the fuel ratio on 2 fuel trims {Lambda 1 and 2}
In this chart y'all can see where rich
14.7 is ideal? I set the low side to stay 14.7, working BACKWARDS I set the high 1 point lower. For Lambda 2 I set the low to 14.7 and the high to 13.5. I will give it a few days and miles to see how it affects the MPG and the TEMPERATURE, if I am right I should not see much change, The M8 is an INCREDIBLE engine
14.7 is ideal? I set the low side to stay 14.7, working BACKWARDS I set the high 1 point lower. For Lambda 2 I set the low to 14.7 and the high to 13.5. I will give it a few days and miles to see how it affects the MPG and the TEMPERATURE, if I am right I should not see much change, The M8 is an INCREDIBLE engine
Ridernut
50+ Posts
M8 Freewheeler
Very interesting read. My wife bought a 15 FW which I put about 10,000 miles on before she traded for a 16 TG which I have put about 11,000 miles on. While at Bikes & Blues last week I got to ride an 18 FW and was extremely impressed. I rode several 2 wheelers and was impressed by the FW more that any of the rest. It ran considerably better than the 15 we had. It's got me seriously looking at trading my 14 Ultra Ltd. in on a new FW. I just wish I wouldn't get beat up so bad on the trade. Looking forward to keeping up with this thread.
Thanks
Very interesting read. My wife bought a 15 FW which I put about 10,000 miles on before she traded for a 16 TG which I have put about 11,000 miles on. While at Bikes & Blues last week I got to ride an 18 FW and was extremely impressed. I rode several 2 wheelers and was impressed by the FW more that any of the rest. It ran considerably better than the 15 we had. It's got me seriously looking at trading my 14 Ultra Ltd. in on a new FW. I just wish I wouldn't get beat up so bad on the trade. Looking forward to keeping up with this thread.
Thanks
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