Quick note about PowerVision tune files from DJ or FuelMoto

[scooterbum46]

Be aware that these maps are pretty good, but not developed on a TG - they're from two wheeled Ultras and Ultra Limiteds.. Difference?

1: Speedo will be off about 5 Mph (on 2011 and later TG's) , the Trike speedo calibration value is 2462, the "improved stock" from the PV is 2233.

2: The length of the exhaust is different, with the extension pipe on the trike. Autotune is your friend here, as the file from DJ/FM is close, but air flow (VE) is definitely affected by pipe length.

Never have seen this mentioned before on threads about using the PV, (including the 692 pages dedicated to the PV across the road)..

 

[msocko3]

Be aware that these maps are pretty good, but not developed on a TG - they're from two wheeled Ultras and Ultra Limiteds.. Difference?

1: Speedo will be off about 5 Mph , the Trike speedo calibration value is 2462, the "improved stock" from the PV is 2233.

2: The length of the exhaust is different, with the extension pipe on the trike. Autotune is your friend here, as the file from DJ/FM is close, but air flow (VE) is definitely affected by pipe length.

Never have seen this mentioned before on threads about using the PV, (including the 692 pages dedicated to the PV across the road)..

Good job on your attention to details, problem is the majority of the people using a tuner are not qualified tuners, their DIY types. They buy a product with intentions that it will be pretty close with only a few or no adjustments to be made. As you discovered, the 2011 and later Triglide is geared different than all the Touring bikes. The gearing difference equals about a 5 mph faster discrepancy in the speedometer reading, the problem is it isn't linear with some seeing upwards of 10 mph faster indicated speeds. My guess is the speedometer error is also the reason some are getting some pretty impressive fuel mileage numbers, after all when your speedometer is reading 70 mph and your only going 60 - 65 mph, your odometer will show more miles traveled than actual.

Good observation on the canned map, they're kind of close most of the time, and at times way off in left field.

I've had to help fix some canned maps which were way off, either lean, rich, or just plain bad actors wanting to start hard, ping and decel pop and sound like a machine gun being fired when you let of the throttle.

 

[riden2low]

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[msocko3]

I think we've all run into that tuner who didn't live up to their local hype. I had one of those years ago, that guy could screw a pooch 7 ways from Sunday. One thing he was good at was making them run hot and ping. When I built the 120 for my 06 I hauled it almost 500 miles one way for a tune by a guy who could do it right, I got a pretty good tune.

You've gotten some pretty good results, you've also been careful enough not to stray into some of the other settings which can get you into trouble if you don't know what to do with them. FWIW the PV is an easy to use tuner since it comes with its own display which is one of the pluses of this particular tuner, even the SEPST and TTS can give you a good tune using their flight recorder feature.

Curious, where are you shooting your rear head temp with the IR gun at?

You getting it at the base of the spark plug?

 

[msocko3]

Its coming off the front cylinder, the sensor is located on the left side just behind the horn, under a rubber boot. This is what it looks like when removed.



Where the majority of the tuners check temp is at the base of the spark plug, you will be surprised at the difference in temp between front and rear. A good tune will normally come in around 300 degrees in this area, the rear will normally run 40 degrees warmer. You can get them a little cooler with lowers removed, except its not an option on the liquid cooled Twin cam.

 

[Gorilla]

the answer is yes about making the speedo/odometer read in correctly. How much before or even if it affects the cruise or 6th gear light I do not know.

 

[rap47]

Just my 2 cents.....My 2011 has a PC-5 with a canned map from Fuel Moto and has been installed for the last three years. Our city sets up radar on different streets through the summer, so you can check your speed. My Tri Glide is always right on the money when checked with the radar. I have not touched a thing since this was installed along with Jackpot mufflers and SE air cleaner. Ya, I am sure it could be fined tuned better, but thing runs like a top and so far not one problem. I have ridden this thing from 850 ft above sea level to over 10,000 ft above sea level and it never missed a beat. NO dis collared pipes and no pinging ever. So for me I can say that I am totally satisfied with my canned map.

 

[msocko3]

I'm sure someone out there is doing just what you thought, the speed didn't appear linear when I checked a wrong speedometer correction number when switching the 2010 Triglide I had and my dads 09 to the 30 tooth sprocket. From some folks observations there is an error of 5 - 10 mph when the correction number is set to one for a 32 tooth transmission sprocket vs the number for the 30 tooth.

 

[Keystone]

After making the switch on my 2009 from 32 tooth to 30 tooth my Speedometer was off quite a bit. I had to do 78 mph on the speedo to be doing 70 on the GPS.

 

[delta]

From memory:

To get your speedo in sync with the gps try this:

1. speed shown on speedometer / speed on gps = number

2. number X pulses per km = new value

example

1. speedo reads 60
2. gps reads 64
3. 60 / 64 = 0.9375
number = 0.9375

4. current pulses per km = 2300
5. 2300 * 0.9375 = 2156
2156 is the new value to enter in the Speedo Calibration

If this doesn't work, do gps / speedo

Been a while since I did this, but it worked.

 

[scooterbum46]

Just my 2 cents.....My 2011 has a PC-5 with a canned map from Fuel Moto and has been installed for the last three years. Our city sets up radar on different streets through the summer, so you can check your speed. My Tri Glide is always right on the money when checked with the radar. I have not touched a thing since this was installed along with Jackpot mufflers and SE air cleaner. Ya, I am sure it could be fined tuned better, but thing runs like a top and so far not one problem. I have ridden this thing from 850 ft above sea level to over 10,000 ft above sea level and it never missed a beat. NO dis collared pipes and no pinging ever. So for me I can say that I am totally satisfied with my canned map.

As the thread title states, this refers to the PowerVision maps, not the Power Commander, which is an entirely different tuner. Note this wasn't trying to slam DJ or FuelMoto (my vendor of choice), just giving a heads up. If FuelMoto had a trike dyno, I'm sure Jamie would be putting up maps specific to the TriGlides..

 

[Mr.Wizard]

The speedometer setting numbers are held in the ECM, not the calibration. It is that way in every tuner I've used including the original PV's. Did they change this with the new versions on the PV and I just didn't notice? If so, it is the only tuner that does this change.

There is very little difference in the trike and a touring bike calibration. Each calibration will need to be adjusted or "tuned" to the volumetric efficiencies and EGR of the host bike. Yes, you can just flash the host bike and it should run better than the OEM calibration but until it is adjusted to the way the host bike breathes it (the tune) will be incomplete.

It is this way for all bikes and all tuners.

EDIT: I was able to research did verify the PV does it a bit different. As stated above, the speedo calibration is held inside the calibration itself and it must be checked/changed to fit your bike requirements before you flash using the PV. However... the ECM does hold the number for the speedo until changed by a tuning device. The PV doesn't give you a chance to change the speedo number while flashing.

You must do that before flashing.

The OP is dead on

 

[plumberdoug]

Due to weather , pot holes and lots of shale on road , I only got 250 miles on bike. Going to Myrtle Beach in May and would like to have power vision set up. Not sure if I should change things with only that amount of miles !

 

[scooterbum46]

Due to weather , pot holes and lots of shale on road , I only got 250 miles on bike. Going to Myrtle Beach in May and would like to have power vision set up. Not sure if I should change things with only that amount of miles !

If you've made no mods to bike, and shaken it down pretty well, there's no harm in putting the PV on the bike and either:

A: Just monitoring the engine parameters with the Gauge feature.

B: Loading the "Improved Stock" map, again using the Gauge feature.

I know that you can roll a brand new bike out the door of your dealer with Stage 1,2,3 or 4 mods with zero miles and "ride it like ya stole it" , but I'm a little more conservative and want to make sure that all those rubbing , electroning and rotating parts are getting along for a while first - I wait until the 1K service to start mods that might involve future warranty disputes. I just rolled 2K on the TG, waiting until I migrate back North before putting in my order to FuelMoto. Of course the above is JMHO and YMMV yadda yadda yadda...

My standard gauge setup usually include engine and head temp (front cyl only), front and rear knock counter, ambient air and intake air..

 

[scooterbum46]

The Delphi ECM uses a technology called Ionization Current Sensing to detect preignition ( in simple terms it puts a DC current onto the plug wires and detects the amount of resistance to conduction after combustion - a flame will conduct current, that's how the automatic reignitors work on gas water heaters in RVs, etc). When the measured values fall within set parameters that indicate preigniton or cylinder pressures approaching preignition, the ECM backs the spark advance down until the event is past. The Knock Count is a record of those events, and is cleared when the ignition is shut off. Note that in the BIG PV thread on that other forum, I've asked a couple of questions about this..

Ambient air temp is from a sensor on the bike, measuring temperature of the air in the immediate area of the bike. Intake air temp is measured by a sensor on the intake tract and shows the temp of the air coming in through the AC. Set at a busy traffic light through a couple cycles and you'll see the difference - on a 90 degree day, I've seen IAT as high as 180 degrees...

 

[Sloufoot]

The consistent knock count in any area of RPM & throttle position can indicate a lean area, or too much spark advance in that area.
In any areas where you happen to be getting a lot of knock should be addressed to prevent damage. Now that being said, the sensor can also have false knocks. Also a faulty plug wire can give false indications but still work for running the engine. Just a wrong resistance can do this.

 

[Sloufoot]

Well if you are getting a lot of knock picked up by the knock sensor find out where it is coming in( throttle position& RPM) then look at your tune in the WinPV program to see if there is a real lean area in those spots, or if the spark is set real high there.
You might be causing the knock (pinging) yourself also by either lugging the engine, or a rapid switch from decelerate to accelerate with the throttle can also give a knock indication.
The plug wires would be the last thing I would look at if I found nothing elsewhere.
One drawback to the knock or ping is if the ECM sees it too often in an area it will retard the timing in that area. This can happen even if the timing isn't the problem. It takes 10 cycles of the ignition to erase the retard back to the setting in the tune.
The ECM can retard the timing to a maximum setting in the tune, but it can't advance it for you.
If you decide to check the wires, you need an ohm meter to check that the resistance is correct in each wire. The values are in the shop manual. I don't want to quote the amount from memory with that working the way it has lately !

- - - Updated - - -

Fuzzy, unless you are getting a constant pinging in an area, or a lot of pings kinda all over I wouldn't worry about a few here & there.

 

[msocko3]

Fuzzy, unless you are getting a constant pinging in an area, or a lot of pings kinda all over I wouldn't worry about a few here & there.

It wouldn't hurt to check for any knock activity, at times there can be some knock without it being audible.

The guy who this piston belonged to never heard the knock, until it trashed the piston. He was lucky the piston is forged, a stock cast piston can crack.

 

[scooterbum46]

If you've got a totally stock bike, and trust that the "one size fits all" map that HD supplies, I guess you might just ignore knock count, but if you've got the tool to see it and understand that the stock map may have deficiencies, you use the tool.

In my case, this is the third 103 that I've had and had the PV on (yup, relicensed twice). The trike is going to get the same treatment as the other two (FM AC, Jackpot 2-1-2 and on this one E-series mufflers), but until I return home from FL, I just put the PV on. I immediately noticed front cylinder knock detection beyond what I considered normal and decided to load the FM (and DJ) supplied "improved stock" map and do some monitoring, before starting to AutoTune. I've now progressed to the point after two AT sessions where it looks like it's under control. But I guess to answer your why - I guess because I don't like holes in the tops of pistons and once you move away from the conservative maps that HD uses, anything, including holes in the pistons is possible..

- - - Updated - - -

It wouldn't hurt to check for any knock activity, at times there can be some knock without it being audible.

The guy who this piston belonged to never heard the knock, until it trashed the piston. He was lucky the piston is forged, a stock cast piston can crack.

View attachment 26469

Yeah - that.... I see you were answering at the same time I was cogitating..

 

[Sloufoot]

Fuzzy, run with your PV on & the knock sensor where you can see it & watch. It will show you in real time what it sees.
There are procedures with the PV to run timing runs to find the optimum timing. It would be worth your time to read up on it & give it a try.