I think UB's third answer was his real decision maker. <snicker>
Straight axle Motor Trike here.. if the wife can ride then so can I.
Straight axle Motor Trike here.. if the wife can ride then so can I.
Trike Conversion Questions????
- Thread starter crzrlou
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Lean in the lower KPa in the 2000 to 3500 huh?
Sounds like to me that there's another "UB" article in your near future.
It would help his cause to install a VPC and to get a reasonable tune that fit the 'now' situation. To heck with the cams if they are in the torque curve he needs. Add some accel enrichment too for that bottom end and throttle roll up.
Here's my thing UB... getting a dyno from a dealer is not for everyone. EPA restrictions keep the good dealer tuners from doing the job correctly. They can't change the AFR red's and aren't allowed to increase the Mv in the 2000 to 3000 range to remove the closed loop. Heck, the 02 sensors aren't fast enough to keep up with the ECM anyway so open your loop full time, read the 02, make your adjustments in the VE tables in advanced and leave that sucker alone.
I too do well with the PCIII.. many smiles around town but it's not side work for me it's a passion to keep my mind and hands busy. Now, don't get me wrong, I do charge for this but it's less than half the price from HD and I can do trikes too. Any Delphi system up to 2009. 2010 use a different and smaller size 02 sensor so my equipment will not fit as of right now. Yes, I can use sniffers but they are not as accurate as I want.
I do a lot of SERT tuning as well. Easy if you know what you are doing. I've now completed my hard knocks on the SEST as well but have only done a hand full because they are so expensive and the bikes too new as you said. The SERT and SEST of course use different software but they are very similar in their set up and configurations. A drag and drop instead of a click down menu. The SEST has an added bonus that allows you to read your map on the ECM and save it and there is a tuning button that you can use to record your runs and make tune changes.
Do you remember when the tuner at HD would say... "No, you can't have a copy of your map. It's proprietary information even though you paid for it. It is my work and you can't have it." Guess the SEST made that a moot point now, huh? Really didn't bother me much anyway. I'd just start over. When I would get a copy and compare it to a stock or canned map there would be very little change anywhere. Never seen a timing change come from a HD dyno, ever.
Yeah, guess we hijacked this thread enough. Fun conversation though.
Post your VPC order on the front page somewhere. See if you get any bites.
I do a lot of SERT tuning as well. Easy if you know what you are doing. I've now completed my hard knocks on the SEST as well but have only done a hand full because they are so expensive and the bikes too new as you said. The SERT and SEST of course use different software but they are very similar in their set up and configurations. A drag and drop instead of a click down menu. The SEST has an added bonus that allows you to read your map on the ECM and save it and there is a tuning button that you can use to record your runs and make tune changes.
Do you remember when the tuner at HD would say... "No, you can't have a copy of your map. It's proprietary information even though you paid for it. It is my work and you can't have it." Guess the SEST made that a moot point now, huh? Really didn't bother me much anyway. I'd just start over. When I would get a copy and compare it to a stock or canned map there would be very little change anywhere. Never seen a timing change come from a HD dyno, ever.
Yeah, guess we hijacked this thread enough. Fun conversation though.
Post your VPC order on the front page somewhere. See if you get any bites.
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- #38
Hi guys, I just got an e-mail from Power Commander. I had written them to see if they were selling any "O2" eliminators for the 2010 HD yet. I have a friend with a 10 TRI-Glide and I put a PCV on it. They said just disconnect the "O2's" from the harness. What do you think about that?
Can you say... engine light?
Error codes out the arse...
ECM stuck in open loop in unknown AFR settings.
The PCV map changes the fuel mixture based on constant ARF settings from the ECM.
How are you going to tune a Power Commander if the ECM doesn't see constant 13.2??
Answer, you can't.
Is this your take?
- Moderator
- #40
I did not know what to make of it. Right now the "O2's are still connected and the trike runs better than before. any idea on how to get around the new "O2's" Is it possible to make my own eliminators or jump wires? Thoughts?
You would need to know the resistance values (full scale) of the new style 02 sensors for the 2010, get the AFR preset used for the dyno test that created your map (usually 13.2 in all tables), fine a resistor to match that 02 value at 13.2 and find a way to put it on your 02 cable as a eliminator for each cylinder.
Just another harley day..
I say, if it runs OK right now, wait for them to manufacture something.
Now this... why can't you bushing up the 2010 bung hole to the the old style 02 sensor bung for the "auto" part of the PCV? Not that you have the auto but take a look at your TG sensors... is there room to add about 1.5" straight out... just asking.
- Moderator
- #45
Wizard, I know what you are saying on going the auto tune route. That is if the wide band "O2's will plug into the new 4 wire harness to the ECM. The stock "o2's both are down where the front and rear header pipes come together creating a chamber, then they split apart one going under the frame to the left muffler the back to the right. In this chamber they also are putting the cat I expect along with the "O2's. There should be enough room to bushing up the bung, but doesn't the O2 head need to be in the exhaust flow? I do not think the older o2 will fit through the newer bung to get into the flow. I think you would have to remove the new bung and weld in an older style. Not worth all that work for now.
I think we just will leave the stock ones pluged in until Power Commander catches up with making an eliminator for it.
I think we just will leave the stock ones pluged in until Power Commander catches up with making an eliminator for it.
Just for the sake of others... The auto tune systems come with new 02 sensors, you do not use the HD 02 sensors. The auto tune 02 sensors do not plug into your normal wiring, they plug into the auto tune box. This was the way the older model auto tune systems work. Is this how the PCV w/auto works as well?
Since HD changed their 02 sensors for the 2010 year they are smaller and have a different plug (just to keep this simple) Since they are smaller they use a different size bung (this is where they screw into the pipe). To use the older style 02 you would need to either change to a earlier model head pipe, cut out the new bung and weld in an older style bung at a muffler shop, or simply add the older style bung to your new pipes.
When using dyno equipment you use an 02 sniffer. Mainly this sniffer inserted into the back end of your muffler. For the most part dyno guys don't plug into your 02 sensors or remove yours and install theirs. I can do this either way but when using a sniffer the 02 sensor is not in direct flow of the exhaust, it is offset back and away but still has exhaust gases flow through the sniffer chamber. The 02 sensor on a Harley head pipe is also a bit offset, not much mind you but is still offset just the same. If you use a bushing and reduced up there would be an increase in the offset of the sensor being in the direct flow but a change of exhaust gases would still exist.
Ted.. sure am glad you are going to wait..
I worked until late last night on another bike and i'm bushed! :blush: So, I'll tell you what.. send me your Power Commander map and let me take a look at the numbers and I will compare it to the others that I have tuned.. maybe able to help a little who knows.Sorry.. I missed the "I" on your model number.
You have one of the first Delphi EFI systems. That is good because if it were a Magneti Marelli system then I would ask you to be careful as to what you do or purchase for it. The visual difference is the Delphi has one big venturi butterfly while the MM has two smaller ones side by side. To check, removed the ac cover and filter but the MM system was not put on softails only baggers.
You are diffidently running lean and your bottom end power is not sufficient to pull you off the line from a dead stop or give you pulling power in mid range when climbing a hill even if you go full throttle. Are you shaking your head yes?
As mentioned by T... your decel pop could be due to an exhaust leak. This needs to be tested. Inspect each joint to see if you notice soot at the slip connections or you can use a butane lighter while the bike is running. See if the flame blows away from the joint. You can use your hand to feel for the air leak but it's best to be careful doing this or you could be burned.
You may also have an intake leak. To find this you would remove your air breather, start and warm up the motor then use something like WD-40 or a flammable starting fluid to spray at the base of the throttle body where it connects to the motor head. Be very careful as using any flamable liquid like this could be an extreem hazard. As you spray, making sure you do not spray into the intake venturi, listen for the RPM's to surge. If they do then there is an intake gasket that must be replaced. For those of you that have no wrenching experience with removing your throttle body please see your favorite mechanic.
If you find no leaks or find/fix any leaks and still experience decel pop you should consider using a fuel management system. I would consider this anyway, see below. A popular choice is the Power Commander. You can still use the PCIIIUSB. I don't think the PCV is available for the 2001 models. Seems that Jamie with Fuel Moto USA is the most friendly place to purchase and does have a retrofit for the PCV for your year mode. Be sure to tell them everything from A-Z about your motor set up and they will load a map that is close to what you need.
When you go this route then your decel can be managed or completely eliminated by changing some of the settings. Jamie and his crew will also adjust your map after the sale if you contact them with your concerns. This is why they are so popular.
Lastly, you can use the fuel management system to increase the fuel mixture in your lower and mid range RPM's and throttle positions to relieve your lean conditions as stated in my previous post.
I hope this has helped with the information you seek.
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See.. I told ya..
I see another UB article coming....
I see another UB article coming....
That's why you should start a "new" one.. page 1 link doesn't work any way.
Just think of all the stuff you've learned from me, you could write a book
- Moderator
- #56
Book I heard it was a novel.
It has been my experience as well, as the loss of power became very apparent after converting my 2004 Road King to a trike. We ride 2 up and pull a 200# trailer on long trips. I have added a 95 in big bore kit, ground the heads (with polished ports), increased the CAMS, and added a Thunder Max fuel management system. I spent approx $4,000 for the power boost.
On this years Sturgis trip we averaged 36 MPG and the power issue is but a memory. This is an expensive route, but it has been very effective.
MR.Wizard,I found no leaks in the exhaust or intake.I removed the neg. battery cable for 20 minutes. Then started the bike.I rode for 70 miles,and found from 1st to 2nd gear some hesitation and popping.Up hill in 4th and 5th there is some pinging when throttle opened up.Ran the interstate 80@ 85 mph very well.I can't find anyone in the Buford area to dyno a trike.I am looking at fuel management systems now.There are so many systems to choose from.The bike is running much better than it was.Iam starting to adjust to the weight of having a trike and down shifting more than on 2 wheels.again thanks for your help.
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