What I did to get rid of the excessive heat on my 2011 Tri-Glide

[1dn5up]

Wind wings with aux oil cooler

Kevin, I remember you mentioning some were , as weather the front air fangs did or did not effect the air flo into the DK oil cooler, being mounted behind it. You had a test with and with out the fangs mounted . Do you recall the results ? Tks.

A wind tunnel with smoke would be the cats a** with all the air deflectors mounted.

 

[Capt.Bob]

lol, I know that feeling well!

But now that it is done, am super happy with it. btw, I put some of the hardest miles a TG has ever seen on it...and nothing has gone wrong.

Click HERE for Alaska trip on TG.

I looked back thru this thread, could not find anyone talking about getting oil temps below 200*. ???

Kevin

Kevin, It is interesting that your observations about reducing actual engine temperatures seem to be getting a limited amount of traction with a lot of folks that are reading these posts. Those of us who own the HD products are faced with several conundrums. I don't think anybody that has owned a TC103 does not realize that the engines can get really, really hot during some times of the year throughout the country. One of the big problems however is that the MoCo threatens their customers with voided warranties and/or ESP's if they take extra measures to insure cooler running engines. I know that you mention taking off certain pieces at time of warranty work to avoid this hassle but most of us who are really concerned about this are riding our bikes/trikes all over the country and don't really have the luxury of being able to remove parts on the fly.

As Mykneesbehurtin mentioned and I can confirm, the new M8 engines with increased cubes and essentially the same cooling strategies for their trikes as the 2016 TC models seem to actually be running hotter in terms of how frequently and long the EITMS are activating. The felt heat to the rider has definitely been reduced but many of our concerns are for the longevity of the engines. I did recently see a TC103-engined Tri Glide that was being sold with over 100k miles on it and wondered what had to be done to get it that far down the road?

I wish there was some convenient way to make the mods that we have data on that change the operating temperatures and improve performance such as gas mileage but feel hamstrung both from the MoCo and secondarily the EPA which is hawking all mods in an effort to control rogue emission problems caused by engine/drive train modifications.

 

[Bill G]

Kevin, It is interesting that your observations about reducing actual engine temperatures seem to be getting a limited amount of traction with a lot of folks that are reading these posts. Those of us who own the HD products are faced with several conundrums. I don't think anybody that has owned a TC103 does not realize that the engines can get really, really hot during some times of the year throughout the country. One of the big problems however is that the MoCo threatens their customers with voided warranties and/or ESP's if they take extra measures to insure cooler running engines. I know that you mention taking off certain pieces at time of warranty work to avoid this hassle but most of us who are really concerned about this are riding our bikes/trikes all over the country and don't really have the luxury of being able to remove parts on the fly.

As Mykneesbehurtin mentioned and I can confirm, the new M8 engines with increased cubes and essentially the same cooling strategies for their trikes as the 2016 TC models seem to actually be running hotter in terms of how frequently and long the EITMS are activating. The felt heat to the rider has definitely been reduced but many of our concerns are for the longevity of the engines. I did recently see a TC103-engined Tri Glide that was being sold with over 100k miles on it and wondered what had to be done to get it that far down the road?

I wish there was some convenient way to make the mods that we have data on that change the operating temperatures and improve performance such as gas mileage but feel hamstrung both from the MoCo and secondarily the EPA which is hawking all mods in an effort to control rogue emission problems caused by engine/drive train modifications.

Bob,


All great points... I live in the Liberal EPA crazy state of California. Now most venders will not even sell non EPA stuff to us guys in this state. The Harley shops will not period unless EPA stamp or approval is on part or tuner.

I have high hopes for the new M8 as far as running cooler goes. So far the M8 seems to be a big improvement over the 103TC. All the mods mentioned as great as they may be are going to become a real issue for owners in states like California. Trust me it is going to get worse here on dealers and riders. Some don't believe this but it's coming, already here.

Not every Harley out there has all of these mods most have mufflers or an exaust system stage 1 and some type of tuner and a fair percentage are still stock maybe slip ons.

California gets real hot and you just don't see Harley's burnt up everywhere. Some of these bikes are pretty high mileage to. Are the more exstreme mods necessary? No, but they are nice and do cool things down some.

As mentioned in some of the threads cooling oil temps to much can can be an issue. Of course getting oil to hot can be a big big deal. I just don't see Harley's burnt up everywhere nor have I heard of any or seen any. I personally hear the complaints about felt heat on hot days more than anything. (We are sitting on top of air cooled motors) there is going to be a little heat.

As the MoCo moves forward they as well as all motorcyle manufactures are going to be held to the highest EPA standards. We as Harley owners may not like this but I am afraid it's a fact.

How far guys want to go to buck this is up to them. With that said I am not knocking anyone for doing so. Just don't do it blindly.


Ride Safe All,
Bill G

 

[Bill G]

I guess I'm just lucky, my 2013 is like the day I picked it up at the dealer, It does not run hot, it does not have a oil temp. gauge on it, and I don't know what the eng. temp. is and don't care, my wife has never complained about the heat, I have never had a shoe melt or my rt. leg turn red from the heat. I live in Ga. it gets hot here in the summer, we ride some times in town and some times on the hi-way,.... I just ride and enjoy it, no heat problems here, I guess I'm just having to much fun to notice it ThumbUp.

Love it Brother......:clapping: us too...

Ride Safe,
Bill G

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, I remember you mentioning some were , as weather the front air fangs did or did not effect the air flo into the DK oil cooler, being mounted behind it. You had a test with and with out the fangs mounted . Do you recall the results ? Tks.

A wind tunnel with smoke would be the cats a** with all the air deflectors mounted.

Yes, a wind tunnel would be a fun tool!

Info I have regarding fork fangs-

They are Very effective at keeping turbulent wind off of the rider and passenger.

Unfortunately, they are very effective at keeping wind of the air cooled engine also. Multiple tests, on multiple bikes and trikes, show that fork fangs increase engine temps by a minimum of 20-25*.

In the winter this is not so bad, but in warmer months, on Twin Cams, this is a significant negative impact...increasing felt heat, and a big number to overcome in keeping engine temps out of the dangerous area.

Using a Tank Lift and Cooling Deflector Wings will reduce turbulent air on the rider and passenger, but only at about 70% effectiveness of fork fangs. HOWEVER, they will decrease engine temps by 18-25*.

So with a TL & CDW's, instead of fork fangs, you will have 70% as good effectiveness in regards to turbulent air, BUT you will have 38-50* drop in engine temps!

I do not recall how much, if any, the fork fangs hurt oil cooler effectiveness. If any, it is not by much. The oil cooler does not need a lot of air flowing thru it to dissipate the heat off the fins, and the shape of the lower catches air and feeds it thru the vent in areas Not blocked by the fork fangs.

I used to run fork fangs on my bikes, see pic below, but after seeing how much it raises engine temps compared to the TL & CDW's, I would not even consider it during warm months.

LINK to Report on Twin Cams, heat problems & solutions.
Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, It is interesting that your observations about reducing actual engine temperatures seem to be getting a limited amount of traction with a lot of folks that are reading these posts. Those of us who own the HD products are faced with several conundrums. I don't think anybody that has owned a TC103 does not realize that the engines can get really, really hot during some times of the year throughout the country. One of the big problems however is that the MoCo threatens their customers with voided warranties and/or ESP's if they take extra measures to insure cooler running engines. I know that you mention taking off certain pieces at time of warranty work to avoid this hassle but most of us who are really concerned about this are riding our bikes/trikes all over the country and don't really have the luxury of being able to remove parts on the fly.

As Mykneesbehurtin mentioned and I can confirm, the new M8 engines with increased cubes and essentially the same cooling strategies for their trikes as the 2016 TC models seem to actually be running hotter in terms of how frequently and long the EITMS are activating. The felt heat to the rider has definitely been reduced but many of our concerns are for the longevity of the engines. I did recently see a TC103-engined Tri Glide that was being sold with over 100k miles on it and wondered what had to be done to get it that far down the road?

I wish there was some convenient way to make the mods that we have data on that change the operating temperatures and improve performance such as gas mileage but feel hamstrung both from the MoCo and secondarily the EPA which is hawking all mods in an effort to control rogue emission problems caused by engine/drive train modifications.

Capt. Bob,

We get a lot of inquires on heat related issues...1-2 everyday. I think there is a certain amount of hesitancy by many to bring up the problems they are experiencing with heat in an open forum due to having seen how others have done so in the past and been pilloried by individuals that remind them they are riding with an internal combustion engine between their legs, what do they expect, etc.

The other factor is that HD has done a Fantastic job at getting the heat high enough to meet EPA standards, and at the same time building an engine that will not burn oil or blow-up, even when the heat is so much that cylinders get distorted.

The subject of heat with the Twin Cams is multi-faceted-

1. Felt Heat
2. Heat that reduces performance
3. Heat that damages the engine

The above 3 are distinctly different. Then on top of that you have owners of Twin Cams that have varying experiences and priorities.

Felt Heat is very subjective.

Felt heat has never bothered me, even when the engine was so hot that HD replaced the entire top end under warranty because it self-destructed from so much heat.

On the other hand, I was just talking a few days ago with someone that was riding their Trike (with long pants) and when they got home there was a burn on their calf the size of a softball.

Felt Heat varies from person to person, and for those it bothers, we feel the most important thing is to reduce the actual heat, which will reduce felt heat. There are also some things that can be done to reduce felt heat, independent of reducing actual heat. They can be seen in this REPORT.


Heat that reduces performance: Performance is a priority to some, and others don't care. For those that do care, there are a couple relevant factors.

1. Cold air intakes produce more power. Without getting into a ton of details, the colder the air is, the more oxygen is in each cubic foot of air. The more oxygen introduced into the intake, the more power your engine will produce. There are tens of thousands of pages data on this subject that are as close as a google search to anyone who wants to read about it.

Another way to "prove to yourself" that colder air produces more power. If you ride on an 80* day, and then ride the same on a 50* day...most will note that their bike feels like it has crisper, stronger acceleration on the cooler day...this is because of the denser air, with more oxygen per cubic foot.

So anything to get the air going into the intake to be cooler, via a cooler engine, and an External Breather System, will be beneficial for performance.

2. At around 250-255* the metal in the engine is expanding at different rates. This results in looser tolerances, which results in not as much power being generated with each combustion stroke. Keeping the engine heat below 250* is beneficial for performance.

3. The vicious cycle- When performance drops due to hot air going into the intake, or the engine being 250* or higher, more throttle has to be introduced to move the same speed done the road....this in turn creates even more heat, which requires more throttle, which creates more heat, etc.

Again, this is not a priority for many. As long as their trike gets them on down the road, all is good. But for those interested in performance, the above should be taken into consideration.


Heat that damages the engine. HD has done a fantastic job at building an engine that will meet EPA standards (air cooled & Twin Cooled).

One of the main methods used to meet those EPA standards is to create a tremendous amount of heat to burn the hydrocarbons, reducing emissions.

It is completely normal for a Twin Cam cylinder head temperature to run 285-340*. Most any dealership will tell you this, and a simple survey of stock bikes will show this. It is normal.

BUT, it is not right. At around 270* damage is occurring to the cylinders, pistons, valves and valve seats.

Back in the day, that amount of heat would have led to ovaled out cylinders that burned oil, burnt valve seats that did not seal, and usually a catastrophic failure.

Nowadays it still ovals out the cylinders, but with newer, better oil rings, even with ovaled out cylinders the engines do not burn oil. It still burns the valve seats, but they do not clatter, they keep running.

Again, that HD designed an engine to generate that much heat, and keep running, is quite the feat.

But, even though it continues to run, there is a substantial drop in power. This is because, even though the oil ring keeps it from burning oil, the compression rings and the valves do NOT keep the compression up where it was before the heat damage occurred.

This drop occurs slowly, over a period of time. Most folks do not even realize that their bike/trike has less power now than it did 1 or 2 years ago, before the damage occurred.

*****
I have run out of time today. I will finish the Heat that damages engines, and talk about the M8's, and Bills concern about dealerships and warranties soon...I hope within the next 24 hours.

Kevin

 

[Bill G]

Kevin,

If your referring to the statement below that I stated above it was never meant to pilloried anyone. It was stated in the context of what was said just being a simple truth. Water cooled bikes also put off a fair amount of heat on a 100 degree day and can get uncomfortable.

My Quote,
(We are sitting on top of air cooled motors) there is going to be a little heat.

In the context that I stated it, it was only meant to confirm air cooled motors run a little warmer and nothing more was meant nor was it meant to attack or ridicule anyone.

With Respect,
Bill G

 

[Fozworth]

Kevin,

If your referring to the statement below that I stated above it was never meant to pilloried anyone. It was stated in the context of what was said just being a simple truth. Water cooled bikes also put off a fair amount of heat on a 100 degree day and can get uncomfortable.

My Quote,
(We are sitting on top of air cooled motors) there is going to be a little heat.

In the context that I stated it, it was only meant to confirm air cooled motors run a little warmer and nothing more was meant nor was it meant to attack or ridicule anyone.

With Respect,
Bill G

I kind a don't think Kevin had you in mind when he said that Bill. Kevin spent considerable time with me and I'm sure many others trying to cool down our rides for a long time. I asked tons of questions when my issue was at it's worse because it got startling hot on Interstate and started losing power. I couldn't hold speed at 80mph in 6th gear. I had to drop to 5th.

Worse still was the heat coming up my right side and the fact my wife was cooking on her right side from foot to chest.

With Kevin's help we got it pretty well straightened out. (But I still want a 2017 like you)!

A few times I got the "put your purse down and suck it up buttercup" vib from some in a different forum but it didn't offend me. It does confuse me though how it is that not everyone had the same ungodly heat we felt before making the adjustments we made.

Keep up the informative posts about that 2017 please!!

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin,

If your referring to the statement below that I stated above it was never meant to pilloried anyone. It was stated in the context of what was said just being a simple truth. Water cooled bikes also put off a fair amount of heat on a 100 degree day and can get uncomfortable.

My Quote,
(We are sitting on top of air cooled motors) there is going to be a little heat.

In the context that I stated it, it was only meant to confirm air cooled motors run a little warmer and nothing more was meant nor was it meant to attack or ridicule anyone.

With Respect,
Bill G

Hey Bill,

NOOOO, I was not referring to what you said, or even thinking of your post.

Not too much pillorying (ridicule) goes on in this forum at all. But there are some other forums that are merciless.

Here are a few quotes of what I was thinking of when I wrote that-

"this is what happens when non bikers and California crybabies want to own a status symbol like a Harley and have no business being near a Harley or the lifestyle. if you are too stupid to know that you are buying an air cooled engine bike then frankly you really deserve what you get…they aren’t made to sit in California hwy traffic or any traffic and will get hot. ride the damn thing right and you wont have a problem."

"This is the ‘nobody told me the coffee I just bought was hot so I burned myself’ nonsense all over again."

"Harley Davidson (and a lot of other companies) wouldn't even exist if the pussy-assed-nimrods we have today where around 50 years ago."

"who doesn't know that having an exposed engine inches from body parts could be hot? If you can't take the heat get off the bike and get a Prius"


The above are not even the tip of the iceberg...but you get the idea.

This is a great forum, where respect is common, and appreciated.

Kevin

 

[Capt.Bob]

Hey Bill,

NOOOO, I was not referring to what you said, or even thinking of your post.

Not too much pillorying (ridicule) goes on in this forum at all. But there are some other forums that are merciless.

Here are a few quotes of what I was thinking of when I wrote that-

"this is what happens when non bikers and California crybabies want to own a status symbol like a Harley and have no business being near a Harley or the lifestyle. if you are too stupid to know that you are buying an air cooled engine bike then frankly you really deserve what you get…they aren’t made to sit in California hwy traffic or any traffic and will get hot. ride the damn thing right and you wont have a problem."

"This is the ‘nobody told me the coffee I just bought was hot so I burned myself’ nonsense all over again."

"Harley Davidson (and a lot of other companies) wouldn't even exist if the pussy-assed-nimrods we have today where around 50 years ago."

"who doesn't know that having an exposed engine inches from body parts could be hot? If you can't take the heat get off the bike and get a Prius"


The above are not even the tip of the iceberg...but you get the idea.

This is a great forum, where respect is common, and appreciated.

Kevin

OK Kevin, I think we can all agree pretty much that there are a bunch of pompous dipsticks that really wouldn't know their ass from a clutch pack. However, getting back to your promise to opine on warranty issues. I am still looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this particular issue which distresses me greatly. The MoCo and their ESP subsidiary have firmly dicked with us in terms of making any mods on our Harleys lest we suffer the slings and arrows of banishment to the blacklist and no corporate support if/when expensive parts grenade. I don't see anyway around their legaleze and would prefer to keep my warranty/ESP intact at the cost of doing the right thing which is really bizarre to say. Capt. Bob

 

[Bill G]

Hey Bill,

NOOOO, I was not referring to what you said, or even thinking of your post.

Not too much pillorying (ridicule) goes on in this forum at all. But there are some other forums that are merciless.

Here are a few quotes of what I was thinking of when I wrote that-

"this is what happens when non bikers and California crybabies want to own a status symbol like a Harley and have no business being near a Harley or the lifestyle. if you are too stupid to know that you are buying an air cooled engine bike then frankly you really deserve what you get…they aren’t made to sit in California hwy traffic or any traffic and will get hot. ride the damn thing right and you wont have a problem."

"This is the ‘nobody told me the coffee I just bought was hot so I burned myself’ nonsense all over again."

"Harley Davidson (and a lot of other companies) wouldn't even exist if the pussy-assed-nimrods we have today where around 50 years ago."

"who doesn't know that having an exposed engine inches from body parts could be hot? If you can't take the heat get off the bike and get a Prius"


The above are not even the tip of the iceberg...but you get the idea.

This is a great forum, where respect is common, and appreciated.

Kevin

No worries Brother,

I am sorry I took wrong your statement. I had just said we sit on air cooled motors and there is going to be a little heat in the posting above. This being the reason I read to much into it. I feel a little foolish now..:blush:

I am so glad it was not what I said. The last thing I would want to do is be mean to someone needing help. Some times the typed word can come across or be taken wrong.... :gah: One of the reasons I like face to face communication.. Lol

I hear you loud and clear on some of your examples and thank you so much for explaining. Another forum I will not name is real bad for this, I get what your saying.


Take Care Friend,
Bill G

 

[DK Custom Products]

So, just to wrap up the Heat that damages the engine.

Since it occurs over a period of time, most folks are not aware that it even has occurred.

This is again, what is so impressive about how HD "designing the engine to run that hot"...even though it is damaged, it will keep running, not burn oil, not clank or clatter.

The only way anyone will know that there is a problem is if they notice that there is a lack of power, or if they do a leak down test and see that it is not holding air.


Returning to your original comment...

The biggest thing that the majority of folks seem to post about is the Felt Heat. In our experience, the best way to reduce the felt heat is to reduce the actual heat.

Reducing the actual heat will reduce the felt heat, it will also have the side benefits, whether a person is concerned about them or not, of preserving the engine and increasing performance.

The biggest thing that folks write us and call us about is after they've had the bike/trike a year or two and they just feel like it does not have enough power to maintain speed on the interstate.

Most of the time, the result is that they find that over time they have had heat take its' toll and they are down on power as a result.

Sometimes they fix it, sometimes not. Whether they do or not, most of the time they improve their situation by keeping the heat down below 250*.



I know there is a lot of talk on the internet about warranty work being denied, but the reality is that I rarely hear of (and I say rarely, just to hedge...I can't think of a single time I've heard of) warranty work actually being denied for basic improvements, such as a Stage I, or an oil cooler, or oil filter relo, Cooling Deflector Wings, Tank Lifts, etc.

Just a few hours ago a Customer dropped by on his 2015 Road King. He had just come from a local Dealership after having some warranty work done. He has our Stage I Performance Plus Kit installed, as well as an CnC Oil Filter Relocation kit. Not only did they not give him any flak about doing the warranty work (leaking rocker cover), but they were quite enamored with the oil filter relo.

Where you do hear of warranty work being denied is when someone installs some non-HD cams themselves, and then there is a cam related warranty claim. Or when they do a handlebar swap themselves and then there is a handlebar switch warranty claim, or when they do a Stage III or Stage IV upgrade themselves and then there is a twisted crank warranty claim.

I have traveled all over North America (as have many of our Customers) and stopped in for warranty claims here and there. Never had a problem.


Regarding the M8's, we just do not have enough experience yet to speak knowledgeably.

We hope to be remedying that soon.


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Bob,


All great points... I live in the Liberal EPA crazy state of California. Now most venders will not even sell non EPA stuff to us guys in this state. The Harley shops will not period unless EPA stamp or approval is on part or tuner.

I have high hopes for the new M8 as far as running cooler goes. So far the M8 seems to be a big improvement over the 103TC. All the mods mentioned as great as they may be are going to become a real issue for owners in states like California. Trust me it is going to get worse here on dealers and riders. Some don't believe this but it's coming, already here.

Not every Harley out there has all of these mods most have mufflers or an exaust system stage 1 and some type of tuner and a fair percentage are still stock maybe slip ons.

California gets real hot and you just don't see Harley's burnt up everywhere. Some of these bikes are pretty high mileage to. Are the more exstreme mods necessary? No, but they are nice and do cool things down some.

As mentioned in some of the threads cooling oil temps to much can can be an issue. Of course getting oil to hot can be a big big deal. I just don't see Harley's burnt up everywhere nor have I heard of any or seen any. I personally hear the complaints about felt heat on hot days more than anything. (We are sitting on top of air cooled motors) there is going to be a little heat.

As the MoCo moves forward they as well as all motorcyle manufactures are going to be held to the highest EPA standards. We as Harley owners may not like this but I am afraid it's a fact.

How far guys want to go to buck this is up to them. With that said I am not knocking anyone for doing so. Just don't do it blindly.


Ride Safe All,
Bill G

I too have great hopes for the M8. Everything is there, on paper, for them to be a great platform for producing power, running cooler, and getting better economy. Time is going to tell.


Yes, I have read those threads about the "danger of running an engine too cool". I have yet to see a 2007 or later Twin Cam that can be made to run too cool. The ideal temp for an internal combustion engine is in the 190-210* range (once fully warmed up). With a lot of work, one might get down into that optimal operating temp range. I was able to with my 2011 Tri-Glide. I have not been able to with my 2014 Tri-Glide.

With my '14 TG I am in the 230 area...so that is still good, but I could go a full 40* lower and still be in good shape.

As we know, all HD engines are a bit different, and some Twin Cams really do run cooler than most, but it is a rare one that will be in the 200* area when fully warmed up.

Cali is a whole other world. (and maybe someday they will be their own country!) I do not look forward to the day when the rest of the USA follows suit.

But even with all the talk, it is rare to find a warranty claim denied when only basic changes (see above) have been made, even in California.

OK Kevin, I think we can all agree pretty much that there are a bunch of pompous dipsticks that really wouldn't know their ass from a clutch pack. However, getting back to your promise to opine on warranty issues. I am still looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this particular issue which distresses me greatly. The MoCo and their ESP subsidiary have firmly dicked with us in terms of making any mods on our Harleys lest we suffer the slings and arrows of banishment to the blacklist and no corporate support if/when expensive parts grenade. I don't see anyway around their legaleze and would prefer to keep my warranty/ESP intact at the cost of doing the right thing which is really bizarre to say. Capt. Bob

See above.

No worries Brother,

I am sorry I took wrong your statement. I had just said we sit on air cooled motors and there is going to be a little heat in the posting above. This being the reason I read to much into it. I feel a little foolish now..:blush:

I am so glad it was not what I said. The last thing I would want to do is be mean to someone needing help. Some times the typed word can come across or be taken wrong.... :gah: One of the reasons I like face to face communication.. Lol

I hear you loud and clear on some of your examples and thank you so much for explaining. Another forum I will not name is real bad for this, I get what your saying.


Take Care Friend,
Bill G

No reason to feel foolish. I should have been more clear. Yep, it is sometimes difficult to convey ones thoughts with little black marks on a screen.

Kevin

 

[TG Bob]

This to Kevin. I have read this thread with interest but maybe I missed this somewhere but where do you take your cylinder head temp readings? Right side, left side, near the spark plug, etc. Also how long to run it before it is fully up to temperature for a reading? I have one of those infra-red temp guns and I would like to make some comparisons. Thanks.

 

[gerald martin]

heat

I too have great hopes for the M8. Everything is there, on paper, for them to be a great platform for producing power, running cooler, and getting better economy. Time is going to tell.


Yes, I have read those threads about the "danger of running an engine too cool". I have yet to see a 2007 or later Twin Cam that can be made to run too cool. The ideal temp for an internal combustion engine is in the 190-210* range (once fully warmed up). With a lot of work, one might get down into that optimal operating temp range. I was able to with my 2011 Tri-Glide. I have not been able to with my 2014 Tri-Glide.

With my '14 TG I am in the 230 area...so that is still good, but I could go a full 40* lower and still be in good shape.

As we know, all HD engines are a bit different, and some Twin Cams really do run cooler than most, but it is a rare one that will be in the 200* area when fully warmed up.

Cali is a whole other world. (and maybe someday they will be their own country!) I do not look forward to the day when the rest of the USA follows suit.

But even with all the talk, it is rare to find a warranty claim denied when only basic changes (see above) have been made, even in California.


See above.




No reason to feel foolish. I should have been more clear. Yep, it is sometimes difficult to convey ones thoughts with little black marks on a screen.

Kevin

are we talking engine head temp or oil temp?

 

[DK Custom Products]

This to Kevin. I have read this thread with interest but maybe I missed this somewhere but where do you take your cylinder head temp readings? Right side, left side, near the spark plug, etc. Also how long to run it before it is fully up to temperature for a reading? I have one of those infra-red temp guns and I would like to make some comparisons. Thanks.

Hi Bob,

The Twin Cam has a Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor on the front cylinder. It is located at the back left part of the front cylinder. See photo below.

The temperature, measured at this sensor, is sent to the ECM and is used by the ECM to make a variety of adjustments. It can also be displayed on the Power Vision as ET. If I recall correctly, the FP3 will also display it.

We use this readout for comparative purposes.

We do play around with IR temp guns, but they are not reliable for a variety of reasons-

They are measuring the surface temp of the metal, which is greatly influenced by wind, ambient temps and much faster heat dissipation than the metal inside the engine.

It is difficult to get the IR beam in the exact same spot every-time....especially while one is riding down the road. If you wait until stopping, surface temps can change as much as 15 degrees in the time it takes to slow down and stop from 70 mph.

That said, IR temp guns can still be useful in getting a general picture. Over the next few days I will shoot some IR temps, and note what they are displaying, in comparison with what the CHT Temp Sensor is measuring.

***If you have a good oil cooler set-up***

Another way of knowing what the internal temps are of your engines metal is to look at oil temps. Oil temps will vary from actual engine metal temps quite a bit before the engine is thoroughly warmed up, BUT, after roughly 30-45 minutes of interstate riding you will find that the CHT temps and the oil temps will be within 10 degrees of each other.

If you do Not have an oil cooler, even on the Twin Cooled, after 30-45 minutes of interstate riding, the probability is that your oil temps will be higher than the Cylinder head temp...it is somewhat dependent on what you have done to cool the engine (tank lift, CDW's, fans etc.) or if you are running fork fangs that heat up the engine.

As far as how long it takes for the engine to warm up...that will vary based on how one rides, and on the ambient temperatures.

Usually an engine will be 90% as warm as it will get within 15-20 minutes of continuous riding. However, it can take up to an hour of interstate speed riding for the engine to reach its' peak temperatures.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

This to Kevin. I have read this thread with interest but maybe I missed this somewhere but where do you take your cylinder head temp readings? Right side, left side, near the spark plug, etc. Also how long to run it before it is fully up to temperature for a reading? I have one of those infra-red temp guns and I would like to make some comparisons. Thanks.

Over the next week or so I will be gathering data on both a Twin Cooled Twin Cam and an air-cooled Twin Cam and posting it here for reference. Below is the first batch of data-

Twin Cooled Twin Cam
17 minute ride, mostly 40-60 mph (not enough to fully warm up) Ambient temp 52*

201* Cylinder Heat Temperature Sensor
209* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
227* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug

are we talking engine head temp or oil temp?

Cylinder Head Temp, as measured by the factory sensor.


Kevin

 

[Capt.Bob]

Love Jugs Cool-Master Fans Ordered

I talked with Dave Sandel, the inventor of Love-Jugs patented cooling system. I decided to order the new stainless Cool-Master dual fan kit which is designed to work well with the 2017 M8 Tri Glide Ultra. I only had to buy an additional $30 part from Harley today to make the system plug and play compatible with the new M8 wiring harness.

Dave suggested that the fans can remove surface temps on the fins up to 100 degrees as measured by an infrared temperature gun. I talked with my Harley Service Manager and he said that adding the Cool-Master fans would not void the warranty and is not an internal parts change/addition.

After reading Kevin's findings about how hot these trikes are running, I decided that reducing engine temps while not affecting warranty issues was something I needed to do with my young M8 engine. I want to get a long and full-power service life out of this new lump. I have absolutely no problems with felt heat issues but want to insure that the engine gets the best cooling that I can give it and still stay on the conservative side. Currently, the Cool-Master fans are on sale for $399 with free shipping so I took advantage of the sale.

Dave at Love-Jugs stated that they really sweat the small stuff (pun intended) on insuring the highest quality of parts and finish to compliment our very expensive trikes. I am tickled that these discussions have opened my eyes to some far reaching potential implications of not attending to engine thermal management and I would prefer not to have to deal with if they can be avoided up front.

 

[DK Custom Products]

I talked with Dave Sandel, the inventor of Love-Jugs patented cooling system. I decided to order the new stainless Cool-Master dual fan kit which is designed to work well with the 2017 M8 Tri Glide Ultra. I only had to buy an additional $30 part from Harley today to make the system plug and play compatible with the new M8 wiring harness.

Dave suggested that the fans can remove surface temps on the fins up to 100 degrees as measured by an infrared temperature gun. I talked with my Harley Service Manager and he said that adding the Cool-Master fans would not void the warranty and is not an internal parts change/addition.

After reading Kevin's findings about how hot these trikes are running, I decided that reducing engine temps while not affecting warranty issues was something I needed to do with my young M8 engine. I want to get a long and full-power service life out of this new lump. I have absolutely no problems with felt heat issues but want to insure that the engine gets the best cooling that I can give it and still stay on the conservative side. Currently, the Cool-Master fans are on sale for $399 with free shipping so I took advantage of the sale.

Dave at Love-Jugs stated that they really sweat the small stuff (pun intended) on insuring the highest quality of parts and finish to compliment our very expensive trikes. I am tickled that these discussions have opened my eyes to some far reaching potential implications of not attending to engine thermal management and I would prefer not to have to deal with if they can be avoided up front.

I have always used the Wards Fans, simply because I liked the smaller look, AND when I got my Wards fans I was not aware of any patent issues.

However, now with the introduction of the LJ Might-Mites, plus what appears to be a clear patent issue, it looks like the next ones I get will be these LJ M-M's.

***********************************

Latest data on IR Gun readings vs CHT Sensor readings.


Twin Cooled Twin Cam
17 minute ride, mostly 40-60 mph (not enough to fully warm up) Ambient temp 68* (Fans on)

206* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
202* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
215* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
200* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




Twin Cooled Twin Cam
20 minute ride, mostly 40-60 mph (not enough to fully warm up) Ambient temp 41* (Fans on)

198* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
181* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
194* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
194* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Note that on these last two I had the fans on and the outside cylinder heads were cooler, and the front and rear had less temp difference than the first set of data where I had the fans off.


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Latest data on IR Gun readings vs CHT Sensor readings.


Twin Cooled Twin Cam
15 minute ride, mostly 70 mph (not enough to fully warm up) Ambient temp 39* (Fans off)

196* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
200* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
216* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
195* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




Twin Cooled Twin Cam
30 minute ride, mostly 75 mph (almost fully warm up) Ambient temp 37* (Fans off)

196* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
200* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
233* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
190* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Latest readings below, still on the Twin Cooled. Hopefully next week I will get some on a Twin Cam air cooled only, so we can see the differences.

Twin Cooled Twin Cam
20 minute ride, mostly 60-75 mph (not enough to fully warm up) Ambient temp 34* (Fans off)

192* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
190* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
215* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
187* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor

 

[DK Custom Products]

Today was a warm day for February in Mississippi.

Got some interesting data below.

70 degree ambient temp. Fans were on for both measurements.

1 hour 15 minutes, so it was fully warmed up. Speed varied from stop and go to popping up to 90 mph a couple of times.


First measurement occurred after it was fully warmed up, and after cruising at steady 65 mph for about 20 miles...so the heat was stabilized.

200* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
213* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
231* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
195* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Second measurement occurred after it was fully warmed up, and after 15 minutes of stop and go traffic. (I kept riding in the stop and go until I saw the heat stabilize...ie. it had quit climbing)

207* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
214* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
212* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
197* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Notice how this is the first time we've seen the rear cylinder cooler than the front cylinder. This is because with no air flowing over the engine (except the fans) the slightly cooler tune for the rear cylinder, along with the fans, actually kept the rear cylinder a tad cooler.


In the first measurement above, you see that even with the fans running, the rear cylinder heat is almost 20* higher than the front. In shorter runs, before everything is fully warmed up, there is usually not that much difference. But the air flowing over the engine, from speed, makes a very significant difference, even with the fans going.

Important note: The temps above are achieved by employing an entire suite of cooling strategies. A factory Twin-Cooled would be running 50-70 degrees warmer.

Hopefully I'll start gathering data on an Air-Cooled only Twin Cam soon. This afternoon would have been a good time to do it, but when I left this morning it was raining and I did not want to ride in the rain at 50* with no lowers.

Yep, I'm a wuss. lol

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Finally did a run on an air-cooled Twin Cam. I was chomping at the bit to do this, because I knew some would be interested in see the significant difference between the Twin Cooled and the air cooled.

The Twin-Cooling of the heads really does a lot for stabilizing the head temps at a lower level, but as we know, it does that at the expense of the rest of the engine (and the oil) being Hotter on a Twin-Cooled than an air cooled.


Air Cooled results-

Air Cooled Twin Cam
40 minute ride, mostly 75 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 68* (Fans on, as well as a full suite of other cooling strategies in place)

220* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
246* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
270* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Another run with the Air Cooled Twin Cam
It's very interesting to see how much variance there is between the Twin-Cooled and the air cooled.


30 minute ride, mostly 55-75 mph (almost fully warm up) Ambient temp 38* (Fans on)

195* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
220* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
244* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
197* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Got more data to post up-

Another few runs with the Air Cooled Twin Cam

45 minute ride, mostly 75-80 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 68* (Fans on)

207* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
229* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
249* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor





50 minute ride, mostly 55-65 mph, then 10 minutes of stop and go (fully warm up) Ambient temp 65* (Fans on)

207* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
212* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
200* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




30 minute of stop and go ...mostly stopped (fully warm up) Ambient temp 72* (Fans on)

225* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
237* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
236* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor



Data below is on a Twin-Cooled Twin Cam

55 minute ride, mostly 65 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 64* (Fans on)

196* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
199* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
210* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
190* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




55 minute ride, mostly 65 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 47* (Fans on)

190* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
185* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
195* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
180* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor



Kevin

 

[gerald martin]

heat

Got more data to post up-

Another few runs with the Air Cooled Twin Cam

45 minute ride, mostly 75-80 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 68* (Fans on)

207* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
229* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
249* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor





50 minute ride, mostly 55-65 mph, then 10 minutes of stop and go (fully warm up) Ambient temp 65* (Fans on)

207* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
212* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
200* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




30 minute of stop and go ...mostly stopped (fully warm up) Ambient temp 72* (Fans on)

225* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
237* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
236* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
211* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor



Data below is on a Twin-Cooled Twin Cam

55 minute ride, mostly 65 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 64* (Fans on)

196* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
199* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
210* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
190* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor




55 minute ride, mostly 65 mph (fully warm up) Ambient temp 47* (Fans on)

190* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
185* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
195* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
180* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor



Kevin

how about some run temps with equal run times with the fans off for comparison

 

[DK Custom Products]

how about some run temps with equal run times with the fans off for comparison

That's a good idea...I did do some runs with the fans off (see post #'s 50 & 51) but as a rule I do not ride much with the fans off.

But I will do some longer runs with the fans off for some comparisons.

Some of them might be cut short, especially the stop-n-go runs, because the heat will get up to the point where damage would begin occurring without the fans.

Kevin

 

[DK Custom Products]

Here are a couple of runs on the Twin-Cooled with NO fans running. Not particularly interesting since it was pretty cold. But over the next week I should have some in warmer ambient temps.


20 minute ride, mostly 60-70 mph (NOT fully warm up) Ambient temp 46* (Fans off)

199* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
200* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
226* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
195* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor



This next one was a bit surprising....ambient temps were 5* lower, and a lower overall speed meant the engine was working less hard, but it was still fast enough to get a good amount of air over the engine. But the temps were almost identical to above.

20 minute ride, mostly 45-55 mph (NOT fully warm up) Ambient temp 41* (Fans off)

196* Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor
200* IR Temp gun right behind front cyl spark plug
226* IR Temp gun right behind rear cyl spark plug
191* IR Temp gun at Outside surface of Cylinder Head Temp Sensor


Kevin

 

[Fozworth]

What fans are we talking about? Wards fans or stock oil and water cooling fans?

Anyway Kevin, I'm going to see a Harley dealer Saturday for a quote to trade my 2016 Tri-Glide for a 2017.

Did Harley fix the heat issues or not? Is the M8 going to be a good engine for 100,000 plus miles?

You think I should keep the 2016?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DK Custom Products]

What fans are we talking about? Wards fans or stock oil and water cooling fans?

Anyway Kevin, I'm going to see a Harley dealer Saturday for a quote to trade my 2016 Tri-Glide for a 2017.

Did Harley fix the heat issues or not? Is the M8 going to be a good engine for 100,000 plus miles?

You think I should keep the 2016?

Thanks in advance.

Talking about the Wards Parts Werks Fans....that are not currently available. However, the Love Jugs fans do the same thing (or better?) and they are available.

Every report I've seen makes it seem like the heat problem is less/or gone on the M8's. We have not tested them yet. Hopefully soon.

Impossible to know how well the M8's will hold up, no one (that I know of) has had one long enough to know yet.

I really like the couple of test rides I've taken, and what they look like on paper, but I think only time will tell...but they do look very much like a great platform.
btw, for business reasons I am waiting until the '18's come out, at which point I am planning on getting either a '17 or and '18.

While I am very happy with my '14, zero complaints, from a power potential perspective the M8 is Very Attractive to me, and absent my business considerations I would be looking at a '17 myself right now.
Kevin