Steering head bearing adjustment questions

[dadztoy]

Hi folks,

I have a 2009 Navi/ABS wing with a 2021 CSC Cobra XL conversion. I do have a 6 degree rake kit on it, but I am still not satisfied with the amount of steering effort required in turns.

I have the head bearings adjusted to the recommended 35 lb ft of torque. What would be the effects of torqueing to say 40 lb ft or perhaps 25 lb ft?

The standard Gen 1 head bearing torque on a non converted bike is 21 lb ft, so I am curious as to why and how the 35 lb ft measurement was obtained recommended.

As previously mentioned, I am trying to obtain easier steering effort in turns with the 6 degree rake kit. I understand the theory behind the 21 lb ft on a non-converted bike, but I am looking for guidance and cause and effect on a trike in relation to the recommended 35 lb ft of head bearing torque. Would more or less head bearing torque result in less steering effort or increased steering effort and would it be detrimental to the operation and/or longevity of the head bearings other aspect of the of the trike.

As always, thanks in advance, all responses appreciated.

Les

 

[Woody]

I will say this when ever someone has the dreaded front end wobble the first thing to check is the steering bearing torque, so by decreasing the torque on your bike you may increase the chances of getting the wobble.

 

[rhino 2]

Hi folks,

I have a 2009 Navi/ABS wing with a 2021 CSC Cobra XL conversion. I do have a 6 degree rake kit on it, but I am still not satisfied with the amount of steering effort required in turns.

I have the head bearings adjusted to the recommended 35 lb ft of torque. What would be the effects of torqueing to say 40 lb ft or perhaps 25 lb ft?

The standard Gen 1 head bearing torque on a non converted bike is 21 lb ft, so I am curious as to why and how the 35 lb ft measurement was obtained recommended.

As previously mentioned, I am trying to obtain easier steering effort in turns with the 6 degree rake kit. I understand the theory behind the 21 lb ft on a non-converted bike, but I am looking for guidance and cause and effect on a trike in relation to the recommended 35 lb ft of head bearing torque. Would more or less head bearing torque result in less steering effort or increased steering effort and would it be detrimental to the operation and/or longevity of the head bearings other aspect of the of the trike.

As always, thanks in advance, all responses appreciated.

Les

Im assuming you are talking about steering effort ....Not wobble??....So what PSI are you running on the front tire...More PSI less effort....

 

[3W-lonerider]

You think your unhappy with the 6 degree, install the stock tree for a year then go back to the 6. you'll notice a really big difference. i ran a stock tree for a couple of years then went to a 4 degree, finally a 6 degree. your not going to get it to steer like it has power steering going into turns on a mountain road. as far as adjustment. i never went by torque of the nut.

how iv'e done mine for 20 years is get a fish scale with a hook on it. jack the front tire off the ground. loosen the nut and hook the scale on the clutch or brake lever with the wheel straight forward. adjust the nut tighter until you get at least 7 to 10 pound of pull before the handle bars move. and front tire pressure and tire make a difference to. a new tire will steer easier than one that has the flat center when they get worn. i run 38 pound air pressure in my front. and 24 in the rear tires.

 

[paws]

At one point, on my 2008 GW Motor Trike [4-1/2* rake], I had lapsed into lazy steering …. had not been riding near as much as I had been due to life circmstances. It was like the front end had become “heavy” … mentioned to a friend who asked the obvious question… are you SURE you are pushing with one hand while pulling with the other?

Next ride.. I put that exercise back into play and the steering was easy-peasy as it had been.

 

[dadztoy]

Thanks for all the responses guys. For those that asked, no wobble what so ever, never was plagued by that issue on this bike. I did have it once on my 1500, a 93 Aspy, but retorquing the head bearing to spec took care of that.

I run my front tire pressure at 41 psi, and the tire is an Avon trike tire. Not sure of the mileage on it, would have to look in my maintenance logs for that info, but I'm guessing 6-8 k miles.

I had a Tow Pak kit on the bike before I converted to the CSC, and had both no rake kit and a 4 degree kit on the Tow Pak so I know what hard steering is.

I was kinda hoping Papa Zook might chime in with his knowledge on the subject. I still ask the question: Why is the stock 2 wheel bike torqued to 21 lb ft and the trike torqued to 35 lb ft and I have even seen some recommendations for 40 lb ft.

So the basic question still remains. What effect does increasing or decreasing the head bearing torque have on steering with a 6 degree rake kit? I sure hope someone has the answer. Maybe I should call Will at CSC and see what he says?

Les

 

[3W-lonerider]

Thanks for all the responses guys. For those that asked, no wobble what so ever, never was plagued by that issue on this bike. I did have it once on my 1500, a 93 Aspy, but retorquing the head bearing to spec took care of that.

I run my front tire pressure at 41 psi, and the tire is an Avon trike tire. Not sure of the mileage on it, would have to look in my maintenance logs for that info, but I'm guessing 6-8 k miles.

I had a Tow Pak kit on the bike before I converted to the CSC, and had both no rake kit and a 4 degree kit on the Tow Pak so I know what hard steering is.

I was kinda hoping PaPa Zook might chime in with his knowledge on the subject. I still ask the question: Why is the stock 2 wheel bike torqued to 21 lb ft and the trike torqued to 35 lb ft and I have even seen some recommendations for 40 lb ft.

So the basic question still remains. What effect does increasing or decreasing the head bearing torque have on steering with a 6 degree rake kit? I sure hope someone has the answer. Maybe I should call Will at CSC and see what he says?

Les

you said your running a avon trike tire, i ran one of those for my last tire. i found that tire harder to steer than a regular tire. i normally run a bias ply tire in the front.

 

[Marc H]

I had the same experience with old trike with the Trike tire. Effort was increased. Grip was phenomenal but I wasn't fond of the effort. My current 1800 had the Trike tire when I got it. It has a 4 degree rake where the old trike was 6 and short wheelbase. It takes more effort but not too bad although I would like for it to be easier. Les are you between Cleveland and Dayton?

 

[dadztoy]

Thanks for the reply Marc. Yeah, I had both as well and I'm fairly satisfied with the 6 degree rake but just looking for a bit less effort. What would be nice is if someone could tell me what happens with less torque and more torque applied to the head nut.

I am going to call Will at CSC and ask him but other vehicle maintenance projects are consuming my time for a few days.

I am actually located about 12 miles north of Cleveland TN in a little hamlet called Georgetown. We're kind of out in the country here with lots of cows, chickens, and other critters not to far away from us.

The actual town of Georgetown is not much more than a whistle stop consisting of a post office, church, fabric shop and a Dollar store, although it is also home to our small Buffalo herd (actually beefalo I was once told) just west of the post office.

I just looked up your town and your just a few miles up the road. We should get together for a ride sometime. I am retired so I am available most every day unless other things might pop up... I have a full service shop including an in floor hydraulic (air) lift, tire machine, welding equipment, and a host of other goodies.

I'll send you a pm with my phone number and you can call at your convenience...

Les

 

[dadztoy]

well Marc, for some strange reason the forum will now NOT let me reply to your message but I did get your number... Give me a call anytime you want to ride...

Les

 

[pwhoever]

I will be down in Dayton in 2 weeks from today and staying until Sun. There is a Goldwing group hanging out at the Best Western and going to be doing some local riding.

Then on Sunday, I will be leaving out and hopefully taking the Natchez Trace from Pasquo down to Natchez. Not sure how that will be because of the tornados and damage recently but appears like it missed the Trace. Then meandering up to Rogers Ark to hopefully arrive on Wed for another Goldwing gathering that weekend.

Feel free to stop in at the Best Western Dayton to meet some of the folks and introduce yourselves. @dadztoy might recognize a few of them besides myself...

 

[Marc H]

Les that's why I messaged you.I didn't think you would be able to message me.You'll have to call or text me before i'll have your number.

Mike that sounds good.I might make down in the evening at least once.Saturday may work out.This thing called work will keep me from joining in more.

 

[dadztoy]

Les that's why I messaged you.I didn't think you would be able to message me.You'll have to call or text me before i'll have your number.

Mike that sounds good.I might make down in the evening at least once.Saturday may work out.This thing called work will keep me from joining in more.

I'll be over in the in the afternoon on Saturday to see Mike. We have ridden together before. Hope to see you there Marc.

Les

 

[Papa Zook]

Hi folks,

I have a 2009 Navi/ABS wing with a 2021 CSC Cobra XL conversion. I do have a 6 degree rake kit on it, but I am still not satisfied with the amount of steering effort required in turns.

I have the head bearings adjusted to the recommended 35 lb ft of torque. What would be the effects of torqueing to say 40 lb ft or perhaps 25 lb ft?

The standard Gen 1 head bearing torque on a non converted bike is 21 lb ft, so I am curious as to why and how the 35 lb ft measurement was obtained recommended.

As previously mentioned, I am trying to obtain easier steering effort in turns with the 6 degree rake kit. I understand the theory behind the 21 lb ft on a non-converted bike, but I am looking for guidance and cause and effect on a trike in relation to the recommended 35 lb ft of head bearing torque. Would more or less head bearing torque result in less steering effort or increased steering effort and would it be detrimental to the operation and/or longevity of the head bearings other aspect of the of the trike.

As always, thanks in advance, all responses appreciated.

Les

Les, 35-40 ft lbs is the sweet spot, this is after years of selling and installing/driving/testing hundreds of trike conversions of every make and model. Increasing the torque to 40 ft lbs would certainly not decrease the steering effort and would only be suggested if there were headshake. Decreasing it to 25 ft lbs will also not decrease steering effort to any noticeable degree either.

Who installed the rake kit? Were both the upper and lower bearings properly greased before installation? Were all the throttle cables and brake lines properly routed and reinstalled in their exact proper positions? If not, there could be some binding/interference causing an increased steering input. Carefully reinspect the routing of all brake and clutch lines and hoses on each side of the bike by visually inspecting and turning the handlebars lock to lock to see if there is any binding.

 

[dadztoy]

Well, the mystery has been solved. Detailed inspection revealed badly brinelled bearing races and some extremely sticky goo which I guess was supposed to pass for grease.

New head bearings have been installed, properly greased and torqued to 25 lb ft.

Handling is much improved and steering effort has decreased. Then head bearing races that were removed were very badly brinelled, most likely from severe over torquing, as well as damaged grease seals, grease seal nut, and is yet another issue I have corrected from the shoddy workmanship from this dealer/ installer.

I had taken my trike to CSC as I refused to let this dealer do any additional damage to the trike .. I spoke to CSC (Will) about this dealership, but it seemed that they didn't want to rock the boat with them, as this particular dealership buys a lot of kits from CSC so I assume nothing was ever said to them...

The dealer who did the install was a real disappointment. I actually took the trike to CSC for rework because I refused to let these butchers work on it any more and **** up even more things. I have been correcting their mistakes for over a year now with defects primarily being severely over torqued and damaged hardware in the head bearing area as well as grossly misaligned floorboards and body parts.

I won't quote the dealerships name on this forum but I will say they are in Northern Georgia and the town rhymes with knome...

I have photos of the bearings and damaged associated hardware kf anyone cares to see them.

Test rides with head torque did not reveal any head shake from 80 mph on down, and much improved steering effort.

I certainly hope this the last of the nightmares from this particular dealer and their shoddy workmanship...

Les

 

[Marc H]

Glad will and the guys got you fixed up.Hopefully you don't have anymore trouble.

 

[Papa Zook]

Well, the mystery has been solved. Detailed inspection revealed badly brinelled bearing races and some extremely sticky goo which I guess was supposed to pass for grease.

New head bearings have been installed, properly greased and torqued to 25 lb ft.

Handling is much improved and steering effort has decreased. Then head bearing races that were removed were very badly brinelled, most likely from severe over torquing, as well as damaged grease seals, grease seal nut, and is yet another issue I have corrected from the shoddy workmanship from this dealer/ installer.

I had taken my trike to CSC as I refused to let this dealer do any additional damage to the trike .. I spoke to CSC (Will) about this dealership, but it seemed that they didn't want to rock the boat with them, as this particular dealership buys a lot of kits from CSC so I assume nothing was ever said to them...

The dealer who did the install was a real disappointment. I actually took the trike to CSC for rework because I refused to let these butchers work on it any more and **** up even more things. I have been correcting their mistakes for over a year now with defects primarily being severely over torqued and damaged hardware in the head bearing area as well as grossly misaligned floorboards and body parts.

I won't quote the dealerships name on this forum but I will say they are in Northern Georgia and the town rhymes with knome...

I have photos of the bearings and damaged associated hardware kf anyone cares to see them.

Test rides with head torque did not reveal any head shake from 80 mph on down, and much improved steering effort.

I certainly hope this the last of the nightmares from this particular dealer and their shoddy workmanship...

Les

Les,

Glad to hear you got you issues straightened out, but 25ft lbs is not the correct setting for torqing your Goldwing trike's steering head bearings with a rake kit using the newer style tapered bearings. It should be 35ft lbs on all Goldwing GL1800 trikes. I have said this for years and the trike conversion manufacturers agree, check out CSC's install instructions on their website as they also call for 35ft lbs of torque (up from 30ft lbs a few years ago).

I did remove the previous poster's link to Traxion Dynamic's steering head bearing torque video because it is not the correct torque information for a trike conversion, which is what is being discussed here. Max's video was regarding upgrading, installing and torqing the steering stem bearings on a Honda Goldwing 2 wheeler as seen in his video, not a trike. Also the statement "your doing it the wrong way, if not done exactly my way" is a bit of an overeach in my opinion.

Experianced M/C dealers/mechanics use a number of tools that will properly accomplish the same goal of installing new tapered bearing races and do so with zero issues if done with care and knowlege. I personally have and use the $400 Motion Pro bearing installation tool Max from Traxxion was reccomending, but not all individuals or small shops use one, but instead use a bearing driver set from Motion Pro, Jim's or even Harbor Freight and all work fine IF the installer is paying attention, the race is properly aligned and fully seated.

Check out this video from Partszilla's YouTube Channel by their resident motorcycle mechanic/expert John Talley who has posted 600+ how to videos. John uses a tapered bearing driver set on the GL1800 bearing race install and you can see that it works just fine. As in anything, competence matters so having an experainced installer is highly reccomended.

(Race Installs done at 16:12 on the video below if you want to skip ahead)

PartsZilla Steering Head Bearings Install Video

 

[Woody]

That is a very interesting video, does the 2019 CSC conversion use the tapered bearings?

 

[dadztoy]

Papa Zook,

Thanks for all the info. I plan to recheck torque in a few more miles and will heed you advise of 35 lb ft. That's the great thing about this forum us so much valuable information is here.

I'll let you know if I see any differences at 35 lb ft...

Les

 

[Papa Zook]

Well, the mystery has been solved. Detailed inspection revealed badly brinelled bearing races and some extremely sticky goo which I guess was supposed to pass for grease.

I have photos of the bearings and damaged associated hardware kf anyone cares to see them.

Les

Hey Les,

Please send me photos of the damaged bearings and hardware, Id like to see those!

email: info@cutnshootcustoms.com

text: 346-800-7946

Thanks!

 

[dadztoy]

Hey Les,

Please send me photos of the damaged bearings and hardware, Id like to see those!

email: info@cutnshootcustoms.com

text: 346-800-7946

Thanks!

Here ya go!

 

[pwhoever]

Ok, this post is right in line with the thread.

Can anyone confirm that All Balls bearings are the ones used for the rake kits? The reason I ask is because I had to dive in there in an effort to solve a slight possible problem. I discovered that the top bearing is definitely an All Balls bearing, but sometimes prior to getting my bike converted to a trike, I had installed All Balls so not sure if at least my top bearing was reused. The reason for the question is that once I got in there and got top plate off to get to bearing, I discovered that a dust shield was never installed and there was quite a bit of grime in there.

I decided to pull the top bearing and clean out that area. When checking the bearing, there was old grease in it and it did feel slightly gritty when manually turning the inside. I cleaned that up really good and now it smoothly turned so I think I may be ok. I regreased it and put it back in. Back to when I had changed out the stock bearings pre-trike, I had all kinds of problems with lower bearing and screwed it up so I ended up buying another kit and having a shop install the new lower. I had a couple unused parts that I tossed into a drawer in my garage and was able to find them. Luckily, there happened to be a brand new unused dust cover for top bearing as well as a new top bearing. Unfortunately, no outer races.

I was tempted to use my unused All Balls top bearing to replace the one that's in there but I know the normal procedure is to replace the outer race at same time. Is it absolutely necessary to always replace the races or could I get by for now just using a new bearing by itself? The race in there now visually seems fine and smooth. Everything in there is now cleaned up of any grime but I'm just going to stop here for the night. I want to make sure everything is the way it should before putting everything back together...

And I just want to add, according to the maintenance schedule, the steering head bearings are supposed to be rechecked and retorqued every 8k miles. Are they crazy??? After this, I will do it more and will admit that I haven't checked it since the conversion was done 7 years ago. But I'm not going through this nightmare every 8k miles...

 

[Papa Zook]

The All Balls tapered bearing sets are sold as a pair, so I would assume that yes, both are likely All Balls Bearings & Races. If the upper race looks fine, I would have no concern about not replacing it.

As for Honda's recommendation of an every 8K miles inspect and retorque, I think this was more a function of type of bearings (round bicycle style bearings) that originally came on the Goldwings.

 

[pwhoever]

The All Balls tapered bearing sets are sold as a pair, so I would assume that yes, both are likely All Balls Bearings & Races. If the upper race looks fine, I would have no concern about not replacing it.

As for Honda's recommendation of an every 8K miles inspect and retorque, I think this was more a function of type of bearings that originally came on the Goldwings.

Ok, good deal. But then does that mean that races and bearings are not standard for the CSC rake kit and it's up to the installer to use whatever they want? Or do they just reuse the existing stem bearings? I can understand the upper race and bearings but I would question the lower bearings being reused as they get pressed into the Honda stem pretty good.

 

[pwhoever]

And the 8k check on steering bearings comes from the CSC recommended servicing, not Hondas. Although it might be recommended by Honda as well, I didn't check.

 

[Ric7410]

Ok, this post is right in line with the thread.

Can anyone confirm that All Balls bearings are the ones used for the rake kits? The reason I ask is because I had to dive in there in an effort to solve a slight possible problem. I discovered that the top bearing is definitely an All Balls bearing, but sometimes prior to getting my bike converted to a trike, I had installed All Balls so not sure if at least my top bearing was reused. The reason for the question is that once I got in there and got top plate off to get to bearing, I discovered that a dust shield was never installed and there was quite a bit of grime in there.

I decided to pull the top bearing and clean out that area. When checking the bearing, there was old grease in it and it did feel slightly gritty when manually turning the inside. I cleaned that up really good and now it smoothly turned so I think I may be ok. I regreased it and put it back in. Back to when I had changed out the stock bearings pre-trike, I had all kinds of problems with lower bearing and screwed it up so I ended up buying another kit and having a shop install the new lower. I had a couple unused parts that I tossed into a drawer in my garage and was able to find them. Luckily, there happened to be a brand new unused dust cover for top bearing as well as a new top bearing. Unfortunately, no outer races.

I was tempted to use my unused All Balls top bearing to replace the one that's in there but I know the normal procedure is to replace the outer race at same time. Is it absolutely necessary to always replace the races or could I get by for now just using a new bearing by itself? The race in there now visually seems fine and smooth. Everything in there is now cleaned up of any grime but I'm just going to stop here for the night. I want to make sure everything is the way it should before putting everything back together...

And I just want to add, according to the maintenance schedule, the steering head bearings are supposed to be rechecked and retorqued every 8k miles. Are they crazy??? After this, I will do it more and will admit that I haven't checked it since the conversion was done 7 years ago. But I'm not going through this nightmare every 8k miles...

Where can I get a rake kit for a 1983 Honda Goldwing GL1100 Trike.

 

[pwhoever]

Where can I get a rake kit for a 1983 Honda Goldwing GL1100 Trike.

I think you may have a hard time trying to track one down. I don't believe there were ever a lot of GL1100 trikes out there. You may need to reach out to various salvage yards and maybe get lucky with a used one. There is also @Papa Zook whose shop does make rake kits but only going back to GL1500's. Or maybe @trike lady may be of some assistance as she is a source for lots of resources.

 

[trike lady]

They're available here: Custom Triple Trees - Honda
Welcome to to Trike Talk.

 

[Gorilla]

Trike Lady to the rescue.. GOOD JOB

Welcome Ric!

 

[Trikemaker]

I am a little late to this thread but I can confirm that all new 6deg Powertrak kits for CSC Vipers come with new upper and lower All Balls brand tapered bearings and seals.

The original Honda bearings are ball bearings, so the original races must be replaced when installing the Powertrak.

If tapered roller bearings have already been installed and the races are still good the races can be reused. Increasing the stem torque beyond a certain point makes the steering require more effort to turn.

Decreasing it makes it easier to turn. However, if the bearings are too loose, there is a risk of headshake or pounding out the bearings and races due to excessive clearance. Conversely, if the stem nut is too tight the bearings can "brinell" and damage the bearings making them even harder to turn and feel notchy.

That is why we recommend 35 ft-bs on the stem. It is a happy medium that gives both easy steering and long bearing life.