Now I have more decisions to make

[Doughboy66]

I started to rebuild my trike, the frame is ready to go for blasting so i decided I would look at the motor today. while looking at the motor I removed the oil screen cover there was more metal there than I was comfortable with. I started looking I found 2 loose head nuts on one side and 1 on the other so I removed the heads. I removed the cylinders and found the wrist pin clip missing on #2 cylinder. I then kept going splitting the case. The cam bearings looked worn out the mains do not look bad.

Now what should be my next step?

Take the case to machine shop for evaluation?

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Yes.
Check the case or have ot checked.
Make sure the main bearing at the flywheel end has correct fit in diameter and width.

Get it machined as needed and then build it.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=1235fdededae98210203643ba6995d77

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Then decide how much power and rpm you want from the engine.
A lot of aftermarket hot rod parts available out there.

 

[Doughboy66]

I want to be able to cruse on the Interstate from time to time. Any suggestions on engine size? I will be running a 4 speed manual trans axle with 295 50 15 tires on the rear.

I also need to find a good machine shop near Charlotte that knows how to work on VW cases.

 

[1dn5up]

I started to rebuild my trike, the frame is ready to go for blasting so i decided I would look at the motor today. while looking at the motor I removed the oil screen cover there was more metal there than I was comfortable with. I started looking I found 2 loose head nuts on one side and 1 on the other so I removed the heads. I removed the cylinders and found the wrist pin clip missing on #2 cylinder. I then kept going splitting the case. The cam bearings looked worn out the mains do not look bad.

Now what should be my next step?

Take the case to machine shop for evaluation?

I would look for a vw rebuilder, that would sell a done rebuild to your specs, and use your carcass as a core. Sounds like your beating yourself up :bo:

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I want to be able to cruse on the Interstate from time to time. Any suggestions on engine size? I will be running a 4 speed manual trans axle with 295 50 15 tires on the rear.

I also need to find a good machine shop near Charlotte that knows how to work on VW cases.

I assume your tech ability is faily high as you had no problem tearing it down and inspecting.

So do you want to build it? Or as mentioned purchase an assembled engine?

As far as drive abilities......
A stock engine will do what you asked.
Mph to engine rpm is a function of the transmission ratios, not the engine specs.
Vw trans are geared faily low, but with your tall tires it is effectively grared up.

As far as engine size and hot rodding.
Go with what you feel you can handle technical wise.
Most anything over a 1776 is going to take more tuning, jetting, timing and such to get right.

 

[Doughboy66]

I assume your tech ability is faily high as you had no problem tearing it down and inspecting.

So do you want to build it? Or as mentioned purchase an assembled engine?

As far as drive abilities......
A stock engine will do what you asked.
Mph to engine rpm is a function of the transmission ratios, not the engine specs.
Vw trans are geared faily low, but with your tall tires it is effectively grared up.

As far as engine size and hot rodding.
Go with what you feel you can handle technical wise.
Most anything over a 1776 is going to take more tuning, jetting, timing and such to get right.

I am very mechanically inclined however this is my first time in a vw motor and i am confused/intimidated by all I have read and

watched on the internet, bore, stroke, deck height, end play and compression ratios and so on.

I would like to rebuild it myself using stock stroke to limit the amount of work that needs to be done to the case but would like a few more cc.

If the case is good I know I should have case savers installed at the very least.

Thoughts?

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

No need to be scared of it if you have other experience. Still the same theory. It is just how you get there that is different.

Go over to "Tech Tech Tech" thread.
The last few entries are about identifying your case.

When you say stock stroke are you also saying stock crank?
There is nothing wrong with the quality of the original german crank. An aftermarket crank os probably not as good on a metallurgical scale.
But
The ability to fully balance it is what is different.
You will be limited on how much rpm you can spin with a stock crank. It will not break but it will beat the main saddles up real bad.

So if you do not plan on blasting away at the rpm and plan to drive it like a normal sane person then there is no worries with the stock crank.

So that just leaves bore.
There are 87mm cylinder kits. That would be 1641 cc. Not much but if you are rebuilding why not?
Anything else does require machine work.

The 1776 is a very popular engine.
Stock crank and 90.5mm cyl kit.
Then there is 92mm and 94mm cyl kits also.

If you go look at my engine build "Anyone Else" you will quickly see I am not a normal sane person. But you will see how much machine work goes into a 2387 displacement.

 

[Doughboy66]

No need to be scared of it if you have other experience. Still the same theory. It is just how you get there that is different.

Go over to "Tech Tech Tech" thread.
The last few entries are about identifying your case.

When you say stock stroke are you also saying stock crank?
There is nothing wrong with the quality of the original german crank. An aftermarket crank os probably not as good on a metallurgical scale.
But
The ability to fully balance it is what is different.
You will be limited on how much rpm you can spin with a stock crank. It will not break but it will beat the main saddles up real bad.

So if you do not plan on blasting away at the rpm and plan to drive it like a normal sane person then there is no worries with the stock crank.

So that just leaves bore.
There are 87mm cylinder kits. That would be 1641 cc. Not much but if you are rebuilding why not?
Anything else does require machine work.

The 1776 is a very popular engine.
Stock crank and 90.5mm cyl kit.
Then there is 92mm and 94mm cyl kits also.

If you go look at my engine build "Anyone Else" you will quickly see I am not a normal sane person. But you will see how much machine work goes into a 2387 displacement.

Well I pretend to be sane sometimes my wife may argue with that.

I have had the muscle cars when I was young (65 Barracuda Formula 273 and 69 Roadrunner 383) so I am not afraid to put my foot in it.

As for the trike I would like reliability but not afraid of putting my foot in it/twist the throttle now and then. Who don't like the sound of a strong VW motor?

I have been reading threads today as time allows and I am leaning towards larger pistons and maybe more stroke without having to clearance the case.

1776 sounds like where I would like to be now I need to figure out part selection.

I want to have a balanced crank, it does not have to be the stock crank.

Thank you Snu.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Hee.....
I had a 66 D-Dart. Same solid lifter 4 barrel 273.
Then later a 70 440 cuda.
Several other things since also.

Get a counter weighted crank and send the whole mess out to the balance shop.

If you go a lot bigger you will need heads with the valve size and port to match your new displacement.

It can become a never ending string of modifications. Like mine does not have a single part that actually came from a vw, completely aftermarket hot rod parts.

So what carbs, case and heads do you have right now?

 

[Doughboy66]

i have a pict 34 carb, 1970 type 3 1600 DP case and G01 auto linea heads.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

So you keeping the type 3 cooling?
Nothing wrong with it but it does make things a bit more difficult to route oil lines if you full flow the oil pump.
A single carb?
With a centermount or plenum style intake there will be limit on how much cam you can successfully run.
Independent throttle body is the way to get the hp. Like weber idf style.
Dual single barrels work well but have their own quirks.

 

[Doughboy66]

So you keeping the type 3 cooling?
Nothing wrong with it but it does make things a bit more difficult to route oil lines if you full flow the oil pump.
A single carb?
With a centermount or plenum style intake there will be limit on how much cam you can successfully run.
Independent throttle body is the way to get the hp. Like weber idf style.
Dual single barrels work well but have their own quirks.

The motor has been converted to type 1, it started life as a type 3. What are your thoughts on the EMPI HMPX carbs?

 

[Fowler]

The motor has been converted to type 1, it started life as a type 3. What are your thoughts on the EMPI HMPX carbs?

I originally had a EMPI 44 hpmx mounted in the center.
I have a hard time keeping the font end down and also had a hard time passing gas stations
Lots of power but used lots of gas

I went to a Weber 32/36 progressive with a fulling heated intake. http://3fowlers.com/carb.html
It took me a while to get the right settings but it runs great now.
good gas mileage on the 1st barrel and power on the 2nd.
For a while I had linked the 1st and 2nd barrels together and again could not keep the font end down. I had to change it back for the 1st barrel would engage then after a certain amount of throttle the 2nd would engage. Works real good

With a Center mount carb you have to worry about icing. That is why I have the fully heated intake. The heat risers go all the way though the intake to heat it up.
Also with heat risers it maters what type of exhaust you have or you have to do some modifications
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/vw-heat-risers-education.html

 

[Doughboy66]

I originally had a EMPI 44 hpmx mounted in the center.
I have a hard time keeping the font end down and also had a hard time passing gas stations
Lots of power but used lots of gas

I went to a Weber 32/36 progressive with a fulling heated intake. http://3fowlers.com/carb.html
It took me a while to get the right settings but it runs great now.
good gas mileage on the 1st barrel and power on the 2nd.
For a while I had linked the 1st and 2nd barrels together and again could not keep the font end down. I had to change it back for the 1st barrel would engage then after a certain amount of throttle the 2nd would engage. Works real good

With a Center mount carb you have to worry about icing. That is why I have the fully heated intake. The heat risers go all the way though the intake to heat it up.
Also with heat risers it maters what type of exhaust you have or you have to do some modifications
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/vw-heat-risers-education.html

Thanks Fowler, I am worried about icing had that issue with the single barrel carb, as for modification I want a ceramic coated exhaust but do not sure how modify it with out trashing the coating.

 

[Fowler]

Thanks Fowler, I am worried about icing had that issue with the single barrel carb, as for modification I want a ceramic coated exhaust but do not sure how modify it with out trashing the coating.

Icing is just an issue with a center mount carb. from what I understand with dual mounted carbs the heat from the heads radiate up the individual manifolds so its not an issue.

With a single mounted carb you could keep your heat risers the same a lot of people do but to make them work correctly on some aftermarket exhaust you have to modify them. Again a lot of people do not do this and do not see any issue


This is how I modified mine. it seems to work good







If a extra diagram shows up here its because I cant seem to remove it

 

[Doughboy66]

I love the Heathen trike.

Thanks for the info Fowlers.

I want all the input I can get to keep from mucking up, it cost more money to do it twice. lol

 

[Fowler]

I love the Heathen trike.

it cost more money to do it twice. lol

I hear that!!!!!
I did so much 2 or 3 times on my 2nd trike (The Heathen) that it probable cost me double to build it.
I want to avoid that on the Trike I am building now if I can
So I am researching every thing I can before hand.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Yeah a single 2 barrel can be difficult to get right.
But many do get the set up and really like it.
Not the most hot rod power but good drivability.
Look at different builds and think about what you want. Be realistic with your expectations.

 

[Doughboy66]

I found a place in Eden, NC called Carolina Dune Buggies the guy is easy to talk to and he has a lot of parts in stock and a machine shop. He said he would evaluate my case for free.

http://carolinadunebuggies.com/

 

[vwbug72501]

On the subject of carb icing. I had a daily driver baja bug when I lived in Memphis. It had a single carb and 4-1 exhaust header setup. Ran into the icing problem the first time I took it to Chicago for Thanksgiving. Came off the interstate after an extended run and throttle stayed open at cruising speed! Made for an exciting exit ramp experience. I found the carb encased in 1" of ice. I remedied the problem by building a sheet metal air preheat chamber that hose clamped to the length of the muffler that had a hose that connected to the air cleaner inlet. That additional air preheat solved the problem. It also increased my winter gas mileage due to the preheated air. I took it off in the warmer weather when I wanted a cooler air charge and didn't need the additional heated air.

 

[Fowler]

On the subject of carb icing. I had a daily driver baja bug when I lived in Memphis. It had a single carb and 4-1 exhaust header setup. Ran into the icing problem the first time I took it to Chicago for Thanksgiving. Came off the interstate after an extended run and throttle stayed open at cruising speed! Made for an exciting exit ramp experience. I found the carb encased in 1" of ice. I remedied the problem by building a sheet metal air preheat chamber that hose clamped to the length of the muffler that had a hose that connected to the air cleaner inlet. That additional air preheat solved the problem. It also increased my winter gas mileage due to the preheated air. I took it off in the warmer weather when I wanted a cooler air charge and didn't need the additional heated air.

I made a Warm air intake for mine also
see it at http://www.3fowlers.com/warmairintake.html
worked real good except I could not get a good seal with the fiberglass box I made.

 

[Doughboy66]

I made a Warm air intake for mine also
see it at http://www.3fowlers.com/warmairintake.html
worked real good except I could not get a good seal with the fiberglass box I made.

Man you guys are full of great ideas!!!

 

[stinger608]

Your original post stating that you had too much metal in the oil strainer is probably due to the rear main beating the end play out of wack. I'm betting that they will have to machine the case for oversized rear main.

Also, as Snu Snu stated, anything 1776 and up will have to have the case and heads "fly cut" to accept larger cylinders. The heads can be purchased already machined fairly reasonable.

For example, here are a pretty decent head from CarCraft: http://carcraftstore.com/cylinderheads-stocktowild.aspx

For the big valve dual spring setup and opening it to 90.5mm for building a 1776, they are about $230 each.

 

[Doughboy66]

I dropped off the case at the machine shop today. They said that the mains are standard size so the case has never been line bored. It will need to be line bored not but he thinks .10 till take of it. as for the rear bearing it also has not had a thrust cut also but it will have to be done now. I am a little relived that I will not have the case.

 

[Doughboy66]

Your original post stating that you had too much metal in the oil strainer is probably due to the rear main beating the end play out of wack. I'm betting that they will have to machine the case for oversized rear main.

Also, as Snu Snu stated, anything 1776 and up will have to have the case and heads "fly cut" to accept larger cylinders. The heads can be purchased already machined fairly reasonable.

For example, here are a pretty decent head from CarCraft: http://carcraftstore.com/cylinderheads-stocktowild.aspx

For the big valve dual spring setup and opening it to 90.5mm for building a 1776, they are about $230 each.

I am thinking about using the 1800 build by aircooled.net to build my motor .

http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

I am thinking about using the 1800 build by aircooled.net to build my motor .

http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/

Yes indeed!
John sells proven parts and gives solid proven advice. You may be able to find the same part for a few dollars less but it will not have the backing, advice or customer support that John gives. All that can can be highly beneficial for a newbie to the game. I dont get much from him, I tend to choose my own parts, but I do have some technical experience of my own.
He is also one of the very few places you will find the thick wall 92 barrels in stock and also the 94 barrels with the 92 bottom.
Read all his tech articles. I was planning to link them in the tech tech tech thread.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

And as another note.....

Your case is at the shop for machine work anyhow......

Go ahead and cut the cylinder bases for the bore you want to run now.
It dont cost much for that part of the machine work. Clearance cutting the insides for big stroke cost a good bit more.

90.5 and 92 take the same cut.

92 thick wall and 94 take the same cut.

 

[dragvw2180]

The only limit to your engine is the size of your wallet . I have not seen any limit to engine size as far as cooling goes with the correct parts and compression ratio. One of the most fun engines I ever had was a 1600 with a cam , dual valve springs , header and dual DCNF carbs. It was a very dependable, fast and low cost engine . I now drive a 2387 turbo engine on the street , drives like a stock engine until I go on boost and then the fun really begins. Before you start doing any machine work I would sit down and create a realistic budget for the project and then add the cost of the parts and machine work to complete the project. I have seen so many people start out with big aspirations become overwhelmed by the costs of everything. You asked about using the Empi carbs, HPMX are actually pretty good carbs and I have used them many times . If you do decide to go with 92's I have a new set of Mahles that I will sell for a reasonable price and I live in NC . Heck I might even take you for a ride, LOL
Mike McCarthy