New Brake Shoes Locking Up 2004 Lehman Goldwing

[Sidecarbill]

It's a shame a simple brake shoe replacement has come to this.:Shrug:

 

[Jack Klarich]

I would figure out what is wrong in the hydraulic system before throwing money @ the disc conversion, unless you want even more surprises

 

[Ray & Paula]

It's a shame a simple brake shoe replacement has come to this.:Shrug:

I hear ya.... Way beyond ridiculous. Did this back in 2015 in less than 1-1/2 hours including the test. epressedHeadbang)

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I would figure out what is wrong in the hydraulic system before throwing money @ the disc conversion, unless you want even more surprises

Thanks Jack.... I totally agree. Going to disc's certainly wouldn't cure all the other inline brake lines and components. Too much BS for a brake system.... :ranting:

 

[ROAD DOG]

Thats why whenever a newcomer ask ''Im looking at buying a Lehman''....My reply is Don't do it......!!

What does Lehman have to do with this ? Do you think that maybe the Lehman kit caused the brakes to not work after 12 years ?

 

[Ray & Paula]

Thats why whenever a newcomer ask ''Im looking at buying a Lehman''....My reply is Don't do it......!!

What does Lehman have to do with this ? Do you think that maybe the Lehman kit caused the brakes to not work after 12 years ?

Thanks for pointing that out Dan.... No, Lehman has nothing to do with this problem. Actually, my trike is 19 years old which looks and runs beautiful with the exception of this brake issue. Simply put, parts wear out. Plus, to my understanding throughout the years, manufacturer's do not have to produce parts after 10 years. With that being said, I've had an additional 9 great years without any problems. My only problem with Lehman is not providing an installation manual as they did with the Monarch ll's. Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

 

[ROAD DOG]

Thanks for pointing that out Dan.... No, Lehman has nothing to do with this problem. Actually, my trike is 19 years old which looks and runs beautiful with the exception of this brake issue. Simply put, parts wear out. Plus, to my understanding throughout the years, manufacturer's do not have to produce parts after 10 years. With that being said, I've had an additional 9 great years without any problems. My only problem with Lehman is not providing an installation manual as they did with the Monarch ll's. Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

My thought is that 1 of the rubber hoses is bad ? Or you are just over looking something. I don't mean this in a bad way, some else might wilk up to it look at it, & fix it in a few minutes? Have had that Done to me more than I want to admit. Did you try backing off on the shoes so there is no drag on them? is the rear pedal right up there on the first pump? Good Luck

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What does Lehman have to do with this ? Do you think that maybe the Lehman kit caused the brakes to not work after 12 years ?

IF IT WAS NOT FOR LEHMAN THERE WOULD BE NO TRI GLIDE OR FREE WHEELER .

 

[Ray & Paula]

My thought is that 1 of the rubber hoses is bad ? Or you are just over looking something. I don't mean this in a bad way, some else might wilk up to it look at it, & fix it in a few minutes? Have had that Done to me more than I want to admit. Did you try backing off on the shoes so there is no drag on them? is the rear pedal right up there on the first pump? Good Luck

Thanks.... I totally agree, it may be as simple as a hose. I don't know what I could be overlooking but, like you said, someone else might be able to look at it and fix it.... Been there and done that as well....LOL. Once I get the new SMC installed, I'm going to take the old one apart and visually inspect it. There has been other Honda riders that have had my similar problem in which the small pin hole passages were plugged in the SMC for example (link below). It's recommended to replace the entire SMC instead of rebuilding it. I really have my hopes up on this one. In regards to checking my rubber brake lines with compressed air, I would, but my good air compressor is 180 miles away due to remodeling my cabin up north.... Damn.

I have an older one here that's kept in the pole barn but, it probably has some moisture in it as well as the air hose. I haven't backed off the shoes yet but, it will be the first thing I do. In regards to the pedal, it's close to being right there at the top on the first pump. This has always been somewhat normal on the Honda Goldwings through the years. Thanks again, appreciate the help. Ray ThumbUp

Secondary Master Cylinder (SMC) Brake Lock-up; https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index...ar-brake-locking-up-rear-center-piston-fixed/

 

[rhino 2]

IF IT WAS NOT FOR LEHMAN THERE WOULD BE NO TRI GLIDE OR FREE WHEELER .

Harley Davidson made Trikes (Servi-Cars)Way back in 1932.....

 

[ROAD DOG]

IF IT WAS NOT FOR LEHMAN THERE WOULD BE NO TRI GLIDE OR FREE WHEELER .

Harley Davidson made Trikes (Servi-Cars)Way back in 1932.....

Not much has changed! same rough ride, reverse worked back then :laugh:

 

[rhino 2]

Harley Davidson made Trikes (Servi-Cars)Way back in 1932.....

Not much has changed! same rough ride, reverse worked back then :laugh:[/QUOTE]

That’s ok….Harley is just waiting for some one else to do the free research and development for them..

 

[Jack Klarich]

Not much has changed! same rough ride, reverse worked back then :laugh:

That’s ok….Harley is just waiting for some one else to do the free research and development for them..

Servicars were 3 speeds with mechanical reverse in the tranny from the factory

 

[ROAD DOG]

That’s ok….Harley is just waiting for some one else to do the free research and development for them..

Servicars were 3 speeds with mechanical reverse in the tranny from the factory

To bad they changed that Transmission It was a good one.

Jack you cant use the word Tranny some people may not no what your talking about. See a bumper sticker the other day It read: "Remember when somebody would say I blew my Tranny"...It meant they were having car problems.

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Not much has changed! same rough ride, reverse worked back then :laugh:

That’s ok….Harley is just waiting for some one else to do the free research and development for them..

To Bad they didn't have Lehman do that for them before they Bankrupted them.

 

[Ray & Paula]

Sorry, I've been away..... I've been gathering parts to throw at this brake mess along with playing catch up on everything else but, I'm getting ready to jump back in. I received my new drums from NAPA using the Lehman Trike part number but, they wouldn't seat properly due to the lug studs being slightly larger past the threads. I actually tightened the new drum onto two of the stud bolts by hand using a socket wrench in which I couldn't remove without the use of a puller....

Couldn't believe it..... :Crap:

I'm sending those back and am looking at others to try and came across a company called Dynamic Friction (link below). It appears that they're made here in the the U.S. and are balanced along with being painted. Biggest visual difference is the lack of cooling fins. As for the company, it appears to be rock solid.

I did receive my other parts, a new SMC, Raybestos riveted shoes, spring kit and a pneumatic vacuum brake bleeder. Funny thing, the shoes are painted practically the same color as my trike..... Interesting to say the least. I did order Wagner riveted shoes but, the Raybestos rivets looked much better along with a little more pad.

Sorry, I had to split this post due to forum character rules. Please continue to next post....

 

[Ray & Paula]

Continued from previous post;

My first attempt will be get the (currently installed) brake shoes properly adjusted > Try to lock them up while on jack stands or road test
> If the brakes lock up and/or are close to it, I'll follow up with more diagnosing. I came across a post in another forum stating how to diagnose the SMC and the PCV & Delay Valve in a lock up situation (link below).
>If it's the SMC, I'll move forward in changing the shoes to the riveted ones. From that point on either way, I'm going to drain the rear brake hydraulic system
> Swap out the SMC since I have it
> Check all the rubber brake lines I can get at
> follow-up by re-filling / bleeding the entire system for the umpteeth time....

This time, I'll make sure I bleed off the SMC by cracking open the banjo bolt as I did with the rear MC. I'll also bleed the junction block. This added procedure is known as the Rocky bleed that's mentioned throughout many forums. Basically, I'm going to follow the Honda SMC recall instructions from 2015 (pdf below) but, with the Lehman trike sequence and Rocky bleed. Hopefully, this will be the cure.

View attachment 115660Please, if you feel I need correcting on any of this and/or if anyone has any other suggestions I would sincerely appreciate your input. Thanks again for all your help!! Ray ThumbUp

Brake Drums - Dynamic Friction Company: https://www.dynamicfriction.com/products/brake-drums

Diagnosing SMC - See Post #41: https://www.cbrxx.com/threads/secondary-master-cylinder-is-stuck.34538/page-3

Honda SMC & Rear MC Recall Instruction .pdf Download Link: https://www.gl1800riders.com/attach...ndary-master-cylinder-replacement-pdf.327333/



View attachment 115660

 

[Jack Klarich]

I stopped using bonded brake shoes many years ago

Experience taught me of problems with premature wear, noise and brake lock up, results with bonded shoes

While this may not be a cure all, it is an over all improvement in braking and worth it IMO

 

[Ray & Paula]

I stopped using bonded brake shoes many years ago

Experience taught me of problems with premature wear, noise and brake lock up, results with bonded shoes

While this may not be a cure all, it is an over all improvement in braking and worth it IMO

Thanks Jack.... Your suggestion earlier on is why I went ahead and got these. I totally agree with you, and the quality can be seen. I even ordered a second set (both from Amazon) but, the second set even though from the same seller were bonded. I may have gotten lucky finding these rivited ones. With them being red helps me believe even more so..... LOL. Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Jack Klarich]

Thanks Jack.... Your suggestion earlier on is why I went ahead and got these. I totally agree with you, and the quality can be seen. I even ordered a second set (both from Amazon) but, the second set even though from the same seller were bonded. I may have gotten lucky finding these rivited ones. With them being red helps me believe even more so..... LOL. Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

Raybestos brakes use a nice red powder-coat on shoes and pads, quality brake parts you can trust

 

[Ray & Paula]

Raybestos brakes use a nice red powder-coat on shoes and pads, quality brake parts you can trust

Thanks Jack, that's great to know. ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Raybestos brakes use a nice red powder-coat on shoes and pads, quality brake parts you can trust

Thanks again Jack, I'm just getting ready to wrap this brake issue up......hopefully. After taking another look at my new Raybestos shoes (not installed yet), I noticed that they're not manufactured incorporating backing plate pads. Instead, the areas that normally have the pads are just edge formed metal on an angle. After researching for other Raybestos sets with the same part number 474PG to compare, I came across a forum (below) in which I found interesting. It appears that these may re-gouge my backing plates again. I really liked the pads along with the quality they put into them, especially with the rivets compared to the Wagner's. Now, I'm looking to find another set of riveted shoes..... :gah: Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

See Post# 11 - http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?179895-1986-GT-Rear-Brake-Shoes-and-Drums

My Shoes:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Ray, the minor difference in the shoes would not be a dealbreaker for me, I have used both types, as long as the backing plates are smooth and lubed they will both perform well

I do understand your concern and I do not begrudge you for trying to get the other shoes

 

[Ray & Paula]

Ray, the minor difference in the shoes would not be a dealbreaker for me, I have used both types, as long as the backing plates are smooth and lubed they will both perform well

I do understand your concern and I do not begrudge you for trying to get the other shoes

Thank you Jack, appreciate it! Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Sorry it's been a while.... Been working on the trike off and on over the last several weeks. The short story; After a 46 mile stop & go road test, the trike is now holding a fairly straight line during braking. Unfortunately, during the second half of the ride the rear brakes became touchy once again along with maintaining a little drag but, not enough to be felt while riding.

I could have easily locked them up if I applied a touch more pressure coming to a stop as before. Normally through the years, I could lock up the rear's under heavy pedal pressure if I needed to in a situation. Of course, that's what I would want it to do. After the test, I tried to get the rears to somewhat drag heavy under pressure by pumping the brake pedal while jacked up but, it wouldn't do so due to being too cooled off.

My plan was to crack open the hydraulic line nut at the wheel cylinder to see if the shoes would release. I tried this procedure after other tests but, by the time I jacked it up to get to the WC nut the brake shoes were relaxed to much to test as well.

Please see the following Post due to the forum allowed text characters being too long.....

 

[Ray & Paula]

Work performed for this test:​

1) Cleaned, inspected all shoe hardware, PB strut free play and re-applied lubricant grease (Permatex purple) on the backer plate nubs behind the shoes on both wheels. I didn't install the new shoes yet due to wanting to clear up the locking problem. I ordered another set of Raybestos non-riveted shoes since they have pads for the backer plate contact.

2) Installed new drums from Dynamic Friction Company (DFC) as shown below. These drums appear to be very high quality which are also high temperature painted from the factory.

3) Adjusted brake shoes giving them slight drag of two free wheel revolutions.

4) Sat the rear on car ramps and jacked up the front giving the front wheel a couple inches off the floor. Did this for caliper inspection, draining, filling and bleeding purposes keeping pressure off the anti-dive.

5) Inspected & cleaned the front calipers & pistons. Coated pistons with brake fluid. Also checked and verified piston movement using the rear brake pedal and front brake lever.

6) Followed the Honda (2015 Revised) Recall draining, filling and bleeding procedure/installation for the new Secondary Master Cylinder (SMC). Of course, I followed the trike procedure as always. Upon the final manual bleed, I performed the Rocky bleed. I did have both, the MC and SMC replaced during that recall. There was also a Proportional Control Valve (PCV) inspection back in 2005 due to some leaking, mine was OK upon inspection.

7) Performed a SMC test to see if the rear wheels would stop while engaging it while free spinning each one. This test passed on both wheels.

I'm currently waiting for a new PCV to throw into the mix which won't be here until the 22nd or so. By then, I'm sure my road testing will be done until the weather breaks in early spring..... Damn. (Headbang)Installation of the PCV appears to be a real P.I.A. to get to on the GL1800 due to all the plastic and radiator removal. I'm going to do some research to see if anyone has found a better way to approach it other than my Shop Manual. No matter what, I'll keep everyone here informed as I move forward. I can't thank all of you enough for hanging in there helping me out. I can't Thank You enough, I sincerely appreciate it!!

In case I don't report back before the Holiday's..... I wish all of you and yours a Very Merry Christmas and upcoming New Year!!! Thank You, Ray

​

Honda SMC & Rear MC Recall Instruction .pdf Download Link: https://www.gl1800riders.com/attachm...nt-pdf.327333/

The following schematic shows the Lehman Brake Hydraulic System along with the Brake Bleed Sequence. I'm going off of the Honda OEM schematic and what I can visually see.





Brake Drums - Dynamic Friction Company: https://www.dynamicfriction.com/products/brake-drums

 

[Ray & Paula]

Looking over my last post I didn't clearly state that I changed out the SMC to a new one. To be clear, I did change it out prior to the test. Thanks. Ray :read:

 

[Ray & Paula]

**REVISION: Lehman Trike Rear Pedal Brake & Bleed Sequence (below). Previously, the diagram showed the Wilwood One Way flow valve on the wrong hydraulic line... Sorry (Headbang)



Today, I went ahead and checked the pivot bracket along with pivot action once again on the SMC. As shown in the video below, the SMC is pivoting but, not by much. Being under hydraulic pressure, I'm sure that's the most it would pivot by hand along with the wheel being off the ground. I checked the 69mm oem measurement again of the SMC push rod length which was spot on.

The outer copper collar flange on the pivot arm for the SMC is a little rough on one side but, it's been that way for years from one of my first tire changes. It hasn't affected the inner steel collar for the SMC piston arm rotation. I would have changed this flanged collar but, its not replaceable that I can see of. One thing I find odd, the SMC piston rod is on an angle when mounted to the caliper bracket (pic below). With the caliper bracket removed, it hangs straight.

All mounting points for the caliper bracket and SMC are in great shape with no slop/wear. I've never noticed this before but, I've never taken a good look until now. I'd like to add, it didn't change anything after removing the jack. Obviously, it correct but, I'd rather see it straight. :shout:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Ray, for accurate setting of your rear brake shoes you can buy a gauge similar to the Amco gauge I have had for 50 years

 

[Ray & Paula]

Ray, for accurate setting of your rear brake shoes you can buy a gauge similar to the Amco gauge I have had for 50 years

Thanks Jack..... Wasn't aware of this tool. Thanks again. Ray ThumbUp

 

[Ray & Paula]

Just wanted to drop in and say, I sincerely appreciate all your help and time throughout this entire ordeal! It's been quite a long and puzzling ride to say the least. I'm sure a resolution will be found.... Thank You!! you Guy's Rock!!

I Wish All of You & Your's a Very Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!!



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[Jack Klarich]

Merry Christmas Ray and Paula

 

[Ray & Paula]

Merry Christmas Ray and Paula:Santa::Santa:

Thank You Jack Have an Awesome Christmas!! :stockings: