Liquid Horsepower

[hARLEY jOE]

produced by Manhattan Oil.
Has anybody had any success with this as an octane booster to get rid of some ping?

I haven't tried it yet, just picked it up at the dealer today.

thanks

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Not enough info.

Where and when does it ping?

What fuel are you using?

Stock bike or modified 13?

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

[screwball]

If your trike is pinging, SOMETHING IS WRONG!!! If you are running 92 octane as recommended it should not ping. If the dealer says that is 'normal' he is giving you a hand job. If your brand new Ford or Chevy pinged would you buy "its normal"

Good Luck

 

[msocko3]

The more information provided the better someone can help you out. The sad facts are the MoCo is producing some bikes and trikes that are pingers from the get go, the lean ARF,hot combution chambers coupled with ****ty timing is very much to blame. Some folks get lucky and never have a ping, others have one that does nothing but ping.

 

[hARLEY jOE]

2013 Triglide, only thing done to the bike so far is cat removed.
In cooler weather, doesn't seem to ping too much.

Using Ethyl (premium for the youngsters)

When the weather/engine is hotter it pings.
Don't have a tuner yet, have been thinking seriously about the TTS that the Wiz talks about.

Otherwise a completely stock bike.

Seems to ping most when the engine is just semi-cruising. In other words, if I keep the engine loaded, the pinging pretty much goes away. If I back off a little bit - pinging is back.

To add some confusion, it doesn't seem to do it every tank of gas, but I'm getting the fuel at Costco (except when out and about). I've had extremely good luck with their fuel with my other bikes and trucks.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Removing the cat completely took the ECM calibration by surprise. It will adjust but it will take a very long time. To assist that along key off and key on more often. This will write the adjustments to the ECM overlay more often. Problem is, it will adjust back to the factory tune. OK for some but not for others who want more out of the 35k for their TG.

Fuel additive, octane booster, may help a bit but not much and will mask your ECM's learning abilities as apposed to what is real. Your considerations are correct. The first modification to our beloved TG's should be a tuner. If you like factory then stick with your factory stuff. Tuners are expensive, getting a bad tuner tosses more $ in the trash.

The TTS is priced moderately (380 and up), has the most bang for your buck and in the hands of someone that understands how to use it can mean the difference in keeping your smile turned right side up.

For those who have little or no knowledge of tuning the TTS library calibration are still way better than the factory tune. As you have more time to understand how things work the tune can be adjusted by you and the butt-o-meter will be happy.

 

[RdKnB]

Stock or not, it should not ping. I would press the dealer to get it fixed.

 

[screwball]

I've always wondered. A trike delivered where I live should be initially set up for 150 foot elevation. A trike delivered to say Denver at 6,000 feet above sea level should have an initial setup different than mine. Am I making sense?? I know the 'computer' can adjust timing and fuel within a range, but you would think the range would be different depending on geographic area. I'm just rambling......

 

[BinIdaho]

Gas at Costco? That's part of your issue right there! Why would you spend $$ for a TG, then buy cheap gas? Try Chevron or Shell. (Side note: I have a 2013 TG and have been using 87 octane for chits/grins....trike runs just fine!)

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I've always wondered. A trike delivered where I live should be initially set up for 150 foot elevation. A trike delivered to say Denver at 6,000 feet above sea level should have an initial setup different than mine. Am I making sense?? I know the 'computer' can adjust timing and fuel within a range, but you would think the range would be different depending on geographic area. I'm just rambling......

Harley tunes them all the same when they leave the factory. The ECM will adjust for altitude when it sees a calculation change in the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) which includes regional elevations.

 

[Phu Cat]

Gas at Costco? That's part of your issue right there! Why would you spend $$ for a TG, then buy cheap gas?

Can I let ya in on a little secret? The gasoline yer buyin at Shell may have been refined at a Chevron or a BP refinery. I made gasoline for 15 years. Some things have changed in the refining game but this hasn't: If I don't have a refinery in your location, you give me gas for my stations in that area and I'll give you the same amount of gasoline for your stations in my area where you don't have a refinery. Been goin on since WWII.

Many, many, many people swear up and down their car, bike, boat, or airplane run better on one brand of fuel than another. Truth is, EVERY brand of gasoline has to fall into the same boiling point range end point. This "end point" is part of a distillation test and is part of how they determine what the amount of BTU are in a specified amount of fuel. So, who cares what the BTU content is???

You do.

The BTU content has a direct relation to how much energy the fuel contains and how much work it can do. All gasoline must fall into this narrow temperature range to be termed gasoline.

Phu Cat

 

[Sloufoot]

The only difference in the delivery trucks is what additives the "brand key" turns on when pumped into the truck. It all comes out of the same pipeline. That being said, some gas gets to set around (especially premium), or their might be a water problem in the storage tanks.
I try to use stations that have a good trade at the pumps.
Hay Barbara, did you get a set of "auxiliary power peddles" with that '13 ??

:Trike1:

 

[screwball]

Harley tunes them all the same when they leave the factory. The ECM will adjust for altitude when it sees a calculation change in the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) which includes regional elevations.

In the 'old days' didn't the carburators need re-jetting to compensate for altitude?? I just didn't know that the injection and ignition had a wide enough range to compensate itself. Us oldsters learn new stuff every day.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Steve, you are correct. Change the jets to change the tune to compensate for altitude changes.

Now the ECM is the brain. It does hundreds of calculations a second and does all the adjustment for you. Altitude is only a small part of the calculation and easily adjusted via fuel mixture be it Lambda or AFR.

When riding the bike the ECM stores changes. When you turn the bike off then back on it writes the changes to the ECM calibration in a fraction of a second. That's why it is important to wait on the engine light to go out indicating the ECM is ready to proceed.

 

[delta]

When riding the bike the ECM stores changes. When you turn the bike off then back on it writes the changes to the ECM calibration in a fraction of a second. That's why it is important to wait on the engine light to go out indicating the ECM is ready to proceed.

Always wondered about this. You load a new tune and reset the adaptive fuel values to begin anew. To speed up the "learning" process, how often would you turn the bike off? I guess the ECM isn't updated in real time as the info is gathered? I'm leaving on an extended road trip next week with a fairly new calibration loaded and will be stopping every 90 minutes or so. Would you recommend a bunch of short rides with many key off/on cycles prior to my trip; or, just don't worry about it?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Always wondered about this. You load a new tune and reset the adaptive fuel values to begin anew. To speed up the "learning" process, how often would you turn the bike off? I guess the ECM isn't updated in real time as the info is gathered? I'm leaving on an extended road trip next week with a fairly new calibration loaded and will be stopping every 90 minutes or so. Would you recommend a bunch of short rides with many key off/on cycles prior to my trip; or, just don't worry about it?

When you load a new tune all adaptive fuel values are wiped out automatically. There is no need to reset them.

The ECM does update itself in real time but the adaptations aren't written as an overlay to the ECM until you turn the bike off and back on. The ECM has a limited range to adapt. Ride time and key on/key off are both important.

The more data you process the better the adaptations.

To write an overlay you must key on/key off. Then the ECM has more room to adapt.

ALV's are always moving around. How much would depend on factors such as humidity, temperature, fuel quality and air density just to name a few. Other factors would include internal changes in your motor such as spark plug or 02 sensor degradation just to name couple.

Bad fuel can cause ping or knock. This is a factor picked up by the ECM and your timing is reduced in that RPM and kPa/throttle position. When the ECM sees this happening it will reduce your timing on the fly but with each key on/key off this retard value is reduced little by little until it is gone from the ALV's. It will only come back if the ECM sees another episode in the same area. The ECM is very smart and knows it could have been bad gas and will protect the motor until you fill up with good gas.

How long you ride or how often you key on/key off depends on how far off your tune is.

If you are using a donor calibration and have not tuned this donor calibration to your bike it could take a very long time. This is why it is so important to tune the motor and get is as close as you can.

In time your tune will be better and better then adjust to conditions and motor wear.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

When you load a new tune all adaptive fuel values are wiped out automatically. There is no need to reset them.

The ECM does update itself in real time but the adaptations aren't written as an overlay to the ECM until you turn the bike off and back on. The ECM has a limited range to adapt. Ride time and key on/key off are both important. The more data you process the better the adaptations. To write an overlay you must key on/key off. Then the ECM has more room to adapt.

I understand this may be a bit difficult to grasp. A picture is worth a thousand words so let me paint a picture.

Let's say you write a letter on the computer.

You go have lunch and get ready to send the letter but read it again to make sure you are precise and to the point.

Oops, you have a spelling error or two.

You now make those edits by correcting the spelling.

You save your edits.

You send your letter.

The letter is the ECM calibration

The spelling errors are mismatch settings in your ECM calibration

The ECM corrects the spelling real time

To save the edit you must turn off the bike.

To send the letter you must start the bike.

 

[delta]

Got it. Thank!

 

[GoSlo]

I've always wondered. A trike delivered where I live should be initially set up for 150 foot elevation. A trike delivered to say Denver at 6,000 feet above sea level should have an initial setup different than mine. Am I making sense?? I know the 'computer' can adjust timing and fuel within a range, but you would think the range would be different depending on geographic area. I'm just rambling......

I had the same thought as you about the bikes being made to run for where they're being sent. I was told the same thing that Mr. Wizard wrote, they're all set up the same regardless of where they're going. They do offer a "high altitude" flash now for those living in higher elevations to help with the pinging. I had it done twice and only worked for a couple of weeks each time. I think the pinging is made worse because of our wonderful gas out here in Colorado - 10% ethanol.

Finally decided to get rid of the cat, add freeing flowing air cleaner and new exhaust. Pinging is gone for now and evermore....I hope.