Harley Fluids What and Why!

[rossn2]

the only lubricant that gives somewhat of a longer life is Formula+.

Why does MOCO recommend 20w-50 SYN3 in all three holes if the quote is true?

My bike has close to 800 miles now, gonna take it in tomorrow and have the 1k service done. It will get
Amsoil 20w-50 engine, 75w-110 Severe Gear in Tranny, and probably Schaeffers Supreme 7000 20w-50 in primary, haven't decided..have to look and see what is on the shelf at home

 

[msocko3]

Why does MOCO recommend 20w-50 SYN3 in all three holes if the quote is true?

My bike has close to 800 miles now, gonna take it in tomorrow and have the 1k service done. It will get
Amsoil 20w-50 engine, 75w-110 Severe Gear in Tranny, and probably Schaeffers Supreme 7000 20w-50 in primary, haven't decided..have to look and see what is on the shelf at home

There are a lot of things which happen behind the scenes at the MoCo that folks don't know. The same oil in all 3 holes is just something to sell Syn3, I won't put a motor oil in my transmission. I tried it and found it came out of the transmission like water when hot and I used to get a lot of metal fuzz on the drain plug magnet. I switched to Red Line Shockproof heavy and never had any more metal fuzz on my drain plug, plus it looked a heck of a lot more substantial than water coming out when its hot.

The reason behind Formula+ helping it to live longer is experience of some guys on Harley Tech Talk. There is a couple of sharp minded guys when it comes to metals and oil who have done some testing. They have found the weakness in the compensator design and identified the oil which seems to help it survive longer.

My dads compensator was shot at 36,000 miles, the compensator in the 2010 Triglide I owned was shot at 22,000 miles. You can tell a bad compensator by either the clang or clunk it makes when you shut the engine off. Or it will have a rattle in the primary area, and sometimes pick up a vibration in the 2,500 - 3,000 rpm range. Only a hand full will vibrate, most clang or clunk.

 

[White Knight 04]

I use Mobil 1 20 / 50 Vtwin in all 3 holes and have been using it for many many years now with no problems !!!!

 

[IBTRIKED]

I'm running Harley's Syn 3 in everything on my '06 Ultra. It is a bit pricy, but I like the idea of only having to carry one bottle of oil when out on the road that will cover "all 3 holes". Yes, I have had to add oil to the trans when out on the road. Now that she's a trike, I probably won't ever have to do that again, but I plan to keep using the Syn 3. According to some people, that are using Amsoil, the Amsoil gear lube helps quiet that clunk in the trans when going from neutral to 1st, but then too, plain old 90 wt gear oil would probably do that too. I know when I get that Syn 3 on my hands it's almost impossible to wipe off that slipery feeling without soap or handcleaner. It feels a LOT like Type E fork oil in that respect.

NM

Like Amsoil for tran. first gear no longer sounds like breaking glass. I also dont slip by N as much. But like you say any 90# might do that cheaper. Ride like Ya STOLE it, Ray

 

[GARYD]

I still say 3 different applications = 3 different oils.

Would you paint your car with house paint? Or paint the outside of your house with interior paint? :Shrug:

And why buy oil supplied by the lowest bidder when you can get a much better oil, cheaper, from Amsoil, Red Line, QS, Pensoil, Mobil1, Valvoline or any other brand name mfg? ThumbUp

 

[Sloufoot]

I still say 3 different applications = 3 different oils.

Would you paint your car with house paint? Or paint the outside of your house with interior paint? :Shrug:

And why buy oil supplied by the lowest bidder when you can get a much better oil, cheaper, from Amsoil, Red Line, QS, Pensoil, Mobil1, Valvoline or any other brand name mfg? ThumbUp

Then answer how company's like Caterpillar just for instance. There are others,, use series 3 engine oil in all their gear boxes, Hydraulic sys., engines, planitaries, chain drives, automatic transmissions, & differentials.......? Not to sell parts,,,They rent or lease much of their inventory. So they also have to pay the bill...
I also know of people that run nothing but 10w, S3 oil in everything (Heavy equipment). With few if any failures. None oil related. But they keep the temps within a safe range. Not like Harley's 300*+ engine oil !
Sometimes a thinner lubricant can get into places while running that a heavier oil can't. If the lubricity of the oil is retained, & isn't forced from between wear surfaces, they could be a better choice. You need to see a bearing running at high speed under oil. It is an amazing insight !
Saying that,,,,, I do run Amsoil 75/140 in the transmission mainly for the quieter gear noise, & the temps it hits.
I guess it really is a personal choice, as long as it meets the correct specs.....KNOW YOUR OIL SPECS !!! :Trike1:

 

[arnie]

Sloufoot,when i worked there we used different oil in different cavities,but that was 6yrs ago.I worked in the factory,not at a dealership.

 

[Sloufoot]

Sloufoot,when i worked there we used different oil in different cavities,but that was 6yrs ago.I worked in the factory,not at a dealership.

I know all the equipment we received from Cat were recommended all the same oils. The only difference was a few models were the differentials.
I can't remember how far back that went, but it seems like more than 6 yrs. In fact I know the trans & hyd. goes back many years. All of our 966 & 988 loaders did, and our D8K'S & D8H'S did. Among others....:Trike1:

 

[arnie]

Yea i have no idea what they recommended.When i worked the ass.line we put in the amount that was called for,sent it to test,then drained,or shipped with oil,depending on what the customer wanted.All the drained oil was filtered(perse) & sent back to the ass. line.I used to install & test marine gears,they had a special oil for them that was located in 55gal drums.I just worked in the engine division,haven't a clue about dozers or any other piece of equipment.When i used to stall build some of the engines we were told to take the fram stickers off of any filter we were installing & put on the companys sticker.It was they said a condition of employment.I have seen enough over the yrs to know that what the factory recommends doesn't mean it's a good thing.Any trucks,motorcycles,any gasoline product i purchase,the first thing i do is dump the oil & put in what i think is best.I'm not saying everybody has the same process that i had seen,but they are all to save a buck.So that is why i use different oils in different cavities.

 

[GARYD]

I still say 3 different applications = 3 different oils.

Would you paint your car with house paint? Or paint the outside of your house with interior paint? :Shrug:

And why buy oil supplied by the lowest bidder when you can get a much better oil, cheaper, from Amsoil, Red Line, QS, Pensoil, Mobil1, Valvoline or any other brand name mfg? ThumbUp

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Amsoil is still cheaper then H-D Syn3 and a much better oil.....in my opinion.

 

[Sloufoot]

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Amsoil is still cheaper then H-D Syn3 and a much better oil.....in my opinion.

Different oils for different holes isn't a bad thing. Just the convenience of one oil. And if there is an internal leak, it doesn't contaminate the hole it leaked into.
What I do is go to an independent testing place and look at their tests for any given oils. Compare their results. You might find the oil you have trusted for years is lagging far behind related to others.
One thing I have found, is Amsoil is quite "self critical" on their products. Also they go to length to explain what the tests mean, and why. I've been very happy with Amsoil for many years ! That doesn't mean it has to be the same in all holes, Harley says you can do that. If you would like to use different in each hole, & you have good luck with that, by all means do it !

:Trike1:

 

[GARYD]

Harley also said if you use syn oil you will destroy your engine.......until they saw lost $$$$$$$ then it became great to use syn oil - - - but only theirs.

 

[treeboston]

I have a ultra classic and had a Royal Star. I use synthetic for engine, where are the other two holes, I know one is for transmisson what is the other (clutch)? It is a 99 Harley wit Renegade trike kit.obiesdomain@verizon.net

 

[Sloufoot]

I have a ultra classic and had a Royal Star. I use synthetic for engine, where are the other two holes, I know one is for transmisson what is the other (clutch)? It is a 99 Harley wit Renegade trike kit.obiesdomain@verizon.net

One is for Engine oil, and the other is trans. You also have to put oil in the primary case through the derby cover on the left.
You need to purchase at least an owners manual from Harley !! What model Harley is it ?:Trike1:

 

[Sloufoot]

And then someone asks why one oil ??

 

[gtodd]

syn3 h/d in all.. Me have a sportster xl1200l/motortrike bike. After I have to do a clutch overhall I wont be using syn 3 for the clutch. I use it to reduce the heat.

 

[garyk]

+1 for Redline. Same as Tonyd. I've used it in all three trikes totalling close to 100,000 miles with no problems.

Yep! Red Line at for sure in the trans. Quiets that klunk

 

[Buddy WMC]

Redline 20/60 in my engine, why? It's the only pure group V synthetic and the ambient air temps are high down here. Belray 75-140 gear saver in the trans, why? HD dealer here uses it on every bike they sell at the 1K service. Advised me that it will not attack some of the parts inside of the trans. HD primary + in the primary, why? Seems a consensus of the members of several forums that it helps with the SE compensator fretting issue.

My primary was removed a few weeks ago to install an SE clutch diapragm, ClutchWiz and Hayden M6 chain tensioner. So far, no evidence of a compensator problem or any metal in the primary. That's my story and I'll stick to it.

 

[waynerid1]

I also use the Harley syc 3 in everything on my 2010 tri glide ,carrying on trips one kind of oil ,made trip to Daytona and up north to wasington and never had to add a drop. used in my other bike also and it had 54000 miles on it without a problem

 

[Ride4Him]

Ok folks
I've opted for a mechanical reverse to be put in my 12 Ultra as part of the Motor Trike kit install.
Anyone running Redline shockproof or AmSoil Severe with a reverse gear added encountered any issues?

 

[eagle1]

syn 3 is waaaay tooooo thin for the tranny. use red line or spectro.
i use rel line its motorcycle gear lube is syn. & is pink in color, so if you have any pink in the oil when you change the primary, you know you have a seal leaking.
also like their 20x60 syn oil for the engine. can't find anyone else who makes a 20x60 wt. oil except r/l. in the heat of the summer you nees it exp. in traffic.

 

[lboos]

I'm new to Harleys, I am getting close to my 1000 mile ck. on my 2013 T/G,
I am really confused on what is the best oil's to use, I have read all 10 pages of the sticky's on Harley fluids and it seems few people can agree on what to use:gah:, from the few that do agree on syn. 3 and by what the Harley manual recommends it looks like syn.3 would be the best guess:Shrug:, esp. for someone like me who knows little about what is best.

Some here says syn.3 is to thin, some say it will make you clutch slip, or that it was no intended for you transmission or the chain drive:gah:.

would I be wrong to go with syn.3 to start with? until I learn more about the diff. oil's, or would the ones who do not like the syn.3 feel that I would be making a big mistake.....A new guy to Harleys.

 

[Sloufoot]

I'm new to Harleys, I am getting close to my 1000 mile ck. on my 2013 T/G,
I am really confused on what is the best oil's to use, I have read all 10 pages of the sticky's on Harley fluids and it seems few people can agree on what to use:gah:, from the few that do agree on syn. 3 and by what the Harley manual recommends it looks like syn.3 would be the best guess:Shrug:, esp. for someone like me who knows little about what is best.

Some here says syn.3 is to thin, some say it will make you clutch slip, or that it was no intended for you transmission or the chain drive:gah:.

would I be wrong to go with syn.3 to start with? until I learn more about the diff. oil's, or would the ones who do not like the syn.3 feel that I would be making a big mistake.....A new guy to Harleys.

Throw another in the pot. I use Amsoil in all three. 20/50 in the engine & primary, 75/140 in the transmission. Harley says you can use 20/50 in the trans also, but then they also sell parts in my opinion ! IT IS way too thin !
Some like the Redline products, & they are top of the line also.
Different oils for different holes isn't a bad thing. Just the convenience of one oil. And if there is an internal leak, it doesn't contaminate the hole it leaked into.
What I do is go to an independent testing place and look at their tests for any given oils. Compare their results. You might find the oil you have trusted for years is lagging far behind related to others.
One thing I have found, is Amsoil is quite "self critical" on their products. Also they go to length to explain what the tests mean, and why. I've been very happy with Amsoil for many years ! That doesn't mean it has to be the same in all holes, Harley says you can do that. If you would like to use different in each hole, & you have good luck with that, by all means do it !
:Trike1:

 

[Nextbite]

I use Amsoil in all 3 holes, runs very smooth in all aspects of shifting, running etc....no problems at all....

 

[ben721364]

You can get tons of information about fuels and lubricants on this forum and some of it, by chance, will be accurate. <grin> The only reliable source of information regarding proper fuels and lubricants is the vehicle manufacturer. The subject is covered in owners' manuals.

I'm new to Harleys, I am getting close to my 1000 mile ck. on my 2013 T/G,
I am really confused on what is the best oil's to use, I have read all 10 pages of the sticky's on Harley fluids and it seems few people can agree on what to use:gah:, from the few that do agree on syn. 3 and by what the Harley manual recommends it looks like syn.3 would be the best guess:Shrug:, esp. for someone like me who knows little about what is best.

Some here says syn.3 is to thin, some say it will make you clutch slip, or that it was no intended for you transmission or the chain drive:gah:.

would I be wrong to go with syn.3 to start with? until I learn more about the diff. oil's, or would the ones who do not like the syn.3 feel that I would be making a big mistake.....A new guy to Harleys.

 

[jackthemachinist]

For what it's worth...

I use Valvoline racing oil 20-50 in the crankcase, Dexron ATF in the primary, and Redline HD Shockproof in the trans of both my 2001 Softail and 1997 FLHTC DFT trike. I change engine oil every 3000 miles and the others when I think of it (which isn't very often, especially with the trans).

At about 85,000 miles I swapped out the stock 5-speed Softail gearset for a Baker 6-speed. No discernible wear with Valvoline 75-90 synthetic transmission oil in it (for about the last 50k without a change). A guy bought the 5-speed gearset from me and put it into his Softail. I's still working fine. I put the Redline Shockproof in the 6-speed because Bert Baker recommended it. (Yes, he's a manufacturer, but he's not promoting house-brand stuff. He's also an engineer. As an engineer, I tend to believe other engineers a little more than corporate PR guys.) I do think the Redline stuff is pretty good. It's also expensive if I changed it a lot, but I don't. (BTW, a lot of new cars don't even come with rearend drain plugs anymore. It's a "lifetime" deal. It seems to me loading on motorcycle gears is a lot less than automotive differential gears.) Anyhow, it worked for me.

At 96,000 on the Softail, absolutely no oil usage, no varnish at all, no valve guide wear or cylinder wall wear, no piston skirt wear (teflon coating still in place). I only tore it down to do a 95" conversion. Again, it worked for me.

I've tried Type F ATF in the trike trans but it made the clutch kinda grabby, so I went back to Dexron. No clutch slip, no appreciable wear on the chain or compensator.

>>...The only reliable source of information regarding proper fuels and lubricants is the vehicle manufacturer. The subject is covered in owners' manuals.

Information in the best interest of the manufacturer, yes. Best for the customer or owner? Maybe yes, maybe no. You can at least be pretty sure that the manufacturer's recommendations will get your ride out of warranty. ;-)

BTW, I'm sure we're all aware that motorcycle manufacturers do not manufacture their own oil, they contract it out to a petroleum refiner. For quite a while, HD oil was manufactured by Valvoline. I understand the manufacturer is now Sun oil. It's pretty easy to have an analysis done on additives to determine what contains what.

Just my experience.

 

[msocko3]

For what it's worth...

I use Valvoline racing oil 20-50 in the crankcase, Dexron ATF in the primary, and Redline HD Shockproof in the trans of both my 2001 Softail and 1997 FLHTC DFT trike. I change engine oil every 3000 miles and the others when I think of it (which isn't very often, especially with the trans).

The compensator in the 07 & up doesn't care for ATF, especially the Screamin Eagle compensator. They seem to live the longest using the Formula+ from HD. I agree 100% about the Redline Shockproof in the trans, its good stuff.

 

[rap47]

Oh what the hell, I might as well throw in my 2cents worth. This is what I use and am very pleased with this combo. Engine: Mobil 1 20/50 V-twin Trany: Red Line Shockproof Primary: Red Line Primary Fluid :Coffee:

 

[engprosinc]

I use Amsoil 20/50 in the crankcase and primary. Amsoil 75/90 in the tranny. Seems to shift into gear smoother, but it's still almost impossible to find reverse. The Harley loud clunk when shifting into first is still very much a pain in the A$$. A clunk, to me, is caused by two or more pieces of metal smashing together, and that can have no good ending. Adusting the clutch per Clutchwiz's procedure hasn't helped.

Oh well, I will just have to assume that neutral isn't "findable" except when the engine is off. Then it is a piece of cake.
Yeah, Harley. You did it again.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I use Amsoil 20/50 in the crankcase and primary. Amsoil 75/90 in the tranny. Seems to shift into gear smoother, but it's still almost impossible to find reverse. The Harley loud clunk when shifting into first is still very much a pain in the A$$. A clunk, to me, is caused by two or more pieces of metal smashing together, and that can have no good ending. Adusting the clutch per Clutchwiz's procedure hasn't helped.

Oh well, I will just have to assume that neutral isn't "findable" except when the engine is off. Then it is a piece of cake.
Yeah, Harley. You did it again.

Finding reverse or finding neutral?

The clutch adjustment procedure on the ClutchWiz.com site is just for those who use the CW. Stock retainers will use 1/4 to 1/2 counter clockwise turn of the adjustment rod in the primary after finding zero lash. (Zero lash = clutch lever just starts to pull away from the grip.)

Zero lash is not the "Dead Spot". The DS is the distance between the grip and clutch lever that seems hard to pull in and does nothing but stretch the cable.

Oil in the primary is really not for lubrication, well... it is but it's only primary chain lubrication and for the compensator. The clutch uses oil for heat rejection only. Any oil will do as long as it doesn't upset the clutch bands.

Some say that Synthetic oils are too slippery for the clutch bands. That information can be misleading. A normal Synthetic oil is just fine as long as you don't use anything heavier than 20-50. Thicker oils tend to make the bands stick when cold which will create a "creep" in the clutch. This will cause your bike to slightly jump forward when putting it in gear while the clutch lever is pulled in or you may have a severe creep and the bike will continue to roll forward at a stop light.

Harley makes a lubricant especially for the tranny and primary. To me, it is too thin to use in the tranny but perfect for the primary. The thinner the lubricant the faster it will reject heat. This product is called "Formula +". Those who use racing clutches will mix Formula + with ATF. (15 oz ATF with 30 oz of Formula + in a dry primary, 3 oz less AFT when doing an oil change) This thins out the primary oil for more heat rejection.

If you have adjusted your clutch many times and still have issues finding neutral, what could be the cause? Here are some things I've run across. Others may add to this list.

1. Cable stretch beyond the cable adjuster.
2. Damaged or warped clutch bands or steels.
3. Worn or damaged right side ramp (cable attaches to a factory ramp)
4. Primary oil level high (or low level)

The #1 reason I find is adjusting the clutch when cold. The bike and clutch assembly should be warn before adjusting. This is when using a stock clutch retainer. For the ClutchWIZ, it is adjusted cold.



:wave4: