Gas fumes problem

[Dr. Joe]

I have a 2010 SGtrike with 56K. Lately I've been smelling gas fumes when I open the garage. Also, if I don't ride it for a few days it start very hard like it's either flooded or not getting gas. Once it's been running it starts fine. Yesterday after I rode it into the garage and shut it down there was a strong smell of unburned gas coming from the exhaust. And when I was riding with a buddy the other day he said he could really smaell my exhaust when I got on the throttle. I No leaks that I can see. Any ideas?

 

[Fearless]

Injection Issues

Best have that machine taken to the hospital from my experience you may have leaky fuel line or fuel injection issues and or ECM controller problems. I would be careful riding you may want to check oil and see if you have any fuel mixed with the oil. fumes around an air cooled engine would make me very nervous, please be careful. Fearless

I have a 2010 SGtrike with 56K. Lately I've been smelling gas fumes when I open the garage. Also, if I don't ride it for a few days it start very hard like it's either flooded or not getting gas. Once it's been running it starts fine. Yesterday after I rode it into the garage and shut it down there was a strong smell of unburned gas coming from the exhaust. And when I was riding with a buddy the other day he said he could really smaell my exhaust when I got on the throttle. I No leaks that I can see. Any ideas?

 

[gerald martin]

fumes

if you smell gas from your exhaust you are probably running too rich do you have a tuner of any sort

 

[Mykneesbehurtin]

if you smell gas from your exhaust you are probably running too rich do you have a tuner of any sort

I had a Cobra tuner on my 12 Road Glide that had rubbed a wire thru and was just pouring gas into one cly. So a tuner issue is possible.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Thanks for the input. I have a Power Commander V tuner but I've got over 5K on it since install with no problems and the gas fumes just started a couple weeks ago. Not many places for leaks as the fuel line goes right into the injectors and a visual inspection shows no leaks. If it was the tuner it would only smell while running but I can smell it in the garage just sitting there. I thought maybe the injectors are letting fuel through but didn't know if that was possible. Once the fuel pump stops can fuel still go down the line? I know there is a one way valve in the line that keeps the fuel in the line from coming out when I disconnect to remove the tank but uncertain if fuel gets by without the pump. If so that would explain the smell and the hard starting after sitting. Kinda like a stuck carb fuel bowl needle would do. I'm going to unhook the line and check in the AM and see if the smell stops.

 

[gerald martin]

fumes

Thanks for the input. I have a Power Commander V tuner but I've got over 5K on it since install with no problems and the gas fumes just started a couple weeks ago. Not many places for leaks as the fuel line goes right into the injectors and a visual inspection shows no leaks. If it was the tuner it would only smell while running but I can smell it in the garage just sitting there. I thought maybe the injectors are letting fuel through but didn't know if that was possible. Once the fuel pump stops can fuel still go down the line? I know there is a one way valve in the line that keeps the fuel in the line from coming out when I disconnect to remove the tank but uncertain if fuel gets by without the pump. If so that would explain the smell and the hard starting after sitting. Kinda like a stuck carb fuel bowl needle would do. I'm going to unhook the line and check in the AM and see if the smell stops.

probably your tuner. I had a power commander on a 2010 triglide that screwed up after a few months. try disconnecting it and running the bike without it for a few miles the problem will probably go away

 

[Mykneesbehurtin]

May be best to pull the dip stick and see if your oil has a strong gas smell,mine did.

 

[Dr. Joe]

I checked the oil... no gas or smell of gas. So I unhooked the gas line and the smell disappeared right away. (Yeah!) I re-hooked it up about 30 min later and went into the house for some TV & supper and came back into the garage after a couple of hours and still no smell. Going for a short ride tomorrow and once back in the garage, will check for any gas smell. If there is I'll unhook the gas line again and check to see if it goes away again.

Regardless, I will check all the tuner connections and check for worn wires because it sounds like a good periodic maintenance idea.

Unhooking it and running it stock is a good idea too. Not sure how well it will run with the TTS 100 cam but I guess at the very least I can run it for a while with a fan on it and sniff around.

While the defective tuner theory has some merit for further investigation I still don't see how a tuner with no power to it could cause gas to flow after the bike is shut off? And if it's not possible for gas to flow with the bike turned off, then that would answer many, if not all, of the tuner & injector concerns.

However... after jumping to a "Harley EFI 101" page I discovered that the EFI system has something called a "fuel rail" which the injectors are attached to and is under constant pressure, (at least while the bike is running), and there is also a fuel return line to the gas tank, which, I'm assuming, all having the potential to leak? So unless I hear otherwise from somebody, I'll take the tank off tomorrow and have a look-see, which I suppose could be another one of those 25K maintenance items?

Anyways... I'll keep y'all informed and feel free to shoot me any other ideas/possibilities.

 

[rhino 2]

Shot in the dark here... How much gas is in the tank.. I say that because when i'm down to under a gal, and park in my garage after a ride there is at times a gas smell...Almost empty tank over a hot engine will cause vapors...

 

[Dr. Joe]

Thanks... I'll monitor that as well. Never really thought about it. It wouldn't explain the strong fuel smell when I was "gettin' on it" or when I just parked the bike but it got me thinking that there could be two, or more, issues here instead of just one that would solve everything.

So the strong fuel smell could be from the tuner, which could also affect starting... and the vapor smell could be an unrelated issue which has a number of possibilities. Good things to keep in mind while probing.

...and the search will continue tomorrow...(Thinking)

 

[trikermutha]

Gas cap vapor lock??? Just throwing that out there :shok:

 

[Dr. Joe]

Hmmm... something to check for sure. It's my understanding that EFI systems rarely, if ever, have that problem but still, there remains that possibility, especially right after a ride when everything is good and hot. Thanks

 

[Gorilla]

Dr Joe your comment that the smell went away when you dis-connected then re-connected the fuel hose maybe your answer. That fitting has an o-ring on it that can wear. That hose connection is under high pressure. When you stop your trike the pressure is still there. If the o-ring is cracked or a little worn out it maybe letting just enough gas slip by to create the smell you are getting. I have had one of those o-rings fail on me and the gas van flow around it petty good. Just a though based on your post.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Dr Joe your comment that the smell went away when you dis-connected then re-connected the fuel hose maybe your answer. That fitting has an o-ring on it that can wear. That hose connection is under high pressure. When you stop your trike the pressure is still there. If the o-ring is cracked or a little worn out it maybe letting just enough gas slip by to create the smell you are getting. I have had one of those o-rings fail on me and the gas van flow around it petty good. Just a though based on your post.

Thanks! I didn't know the lin stays under pressure. So could the loss of pressure in the line also cause the hard starting? When this happens it sounds just like it starving for gas, like when you try to start a carbureted engine without the choke.

 

[Gorilla]

Thanks! I didn't know the lin stays under pressure. So could the loss of pressure in the line also cause the hard starting? When this happens it sounds just like it starving for gas, like when you try to start a carbureted engine without the choke.

Yep on the hard start but try this. Turn the key on and give it about 30 sec. before hitting the start button. If it starts right off you have your answer on that. The 30 sec should allow the pressure on build full up before you fire it off. The line loses some pressure after turn off but there still is quite a bit there for the next start up. If it pressure goes down to zero then it takes longer to build up enough to open the injectors.

Not really open up the injectors but enough pressure to give a vapor shot to the cylinders.

 

[Dr. Joe]

I'll replace the o- ring tomorrow. Is it a NAPA o-ring or a dealer only item?

 

[Gorilla]

I'll replace the o- ring tomorrow. Is it a NAPA o-ring or a dealer only item?

I purchased from the dealer. I wanted the part to work right in that application. Would be guessing from NAPA

 

[Dr. Joe]

I purchased from the dealer. I wanted the part to work right in that application. Would be guessing from NAPA

I thought before I head to the dealer I'd check online (Ronnie's Harley Davidson has a great micro fiche site where you can check out all OEM parts and numbers,as well as looking at an exploded view) for the part number and, lo and behold, there ain't any! According to other blogs the o-ring is #11273 which is the same one used for the oil drain plug.

Also, it looks like there is a very small o-ring in the male end of the fuel line, as well as a larger one up inside of the female end where the line clips into. So here's a couple of questions:
...Which one(s) did you replace?
...What part number(s) do you have for them?
...What procedure did you use to replace them?

Thanks a bunch Gorilla!a. If this works then I owe ya a brew! I think you mentioned you are close to Daytona and Bike Week is coming up!

 

[Mykneesbehurtin]

If you replace the o-rings make sure they are compatible with gas,not all are.You can look them up on Grainger supply on line or Mc Master-Carr they should give a description of them.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Thanks! After doing a little research I found that Viton o-rings are the way to go. I also found a part number from Harley 11323A that shows it being used for the upper o-ring. Probably rubber?
I guess the Viton ones can also be purchased from Amazon. Will check further.
But I do plan to replace it because all I have to do to stop the smell is unhook the gas line.
Thanks again for the post!

 

[Gorilla]

Sorry I didn't write the part numbers down and it was several years ago. I replaced both. I got them from my HD dealer parts department.

 

[Dr. Joe]

went to HD dealer today and PN 11323A that I mentioned earlier ain't the one... too big. And their parts info don't show any replacement o-rings, just a replace gas line ($62). However J&P Cycles sells the o-rings. Also found out that the dimensions for it are:
(ID)10mm x (OD)14mm x (thick)2mm.

Will report once the job is completed...plan to do it tomorrow.

 

[MDF48]

This might help some people.

I went through this leaking o ring fuel disconnect ordeal about 5 years ago. It took me about a week of research to get the real facts and sizes on the o rings. The female fitting actually has 2 o rings in it. The lower one seems to be the one that usually leaks first. It can be changed "on the bike" with a dental type pick and a little patience. I took my tank off (2007 RG) and changed both of them. If you do this be sure to release the pressure by pushing up on the end of the fitting with a rag or something over it. This will keep the gas spray from hitting you in the face...! I know this for a fact...!

Below is the information from my order with McMaster-Carr for these o rings. All of the info that helped me with this was received from several guys on the forums back in 2012.

1	9464K44	Viton(R) Fluoroelastomer O-Ring, AS568A Dash Number 109, packs of 50	1 pack	Monday morning	5.04 per pack	5.04
2	5267T487	Brown Viton(R) Fluoroelastomer O-Ring, AS568A Dash Number 905, packs of 25	1 pack	Monday morning	3.04 per pack	3.04

The number that is after the "Dash Number" is the common size indicator for each ring. One is a 109 and one is a 905.

The below is a cut and paste from one of the guys that helped me with this:

"Many thanks to n8dc for his help and research. What he told me is that the o ring is size -905. They can be ordered from McMaster.com. Insider diameter is .414", outside diameter is .558" and thickness is .072".The smaller o ring that holds the poppet or piston in is a - 109 with a .299 od and a .505 od.I purchsed Harley part number 11273 for $1.33 but they could not give me the specs on that o ring. Since our store is only about a mile away from the John Deere machinery dealer, I stopped by there and purchased Deere part number R26286 for $0.85 because Deere could give me the specs.R26286 has the proper I.S. diameter of .414" and the proper thickness of .072", so I installed it and my leaking problem is solved. Coincidently, I lined up the Harley 11273 next to the Deere R26286 and the standard o ring on the oil drain plug and, while I didn't use a micrometer, all 3 appeared to be exactly the same size so I suspect good results could be had with each of them.For others attempting this fix, I used a dental pick to remove the old o ring and found a huge chunk had been taken out of it. The removal took all of 3 seconds. Then the fun began. n8dc gave me a great suggestion to get the new o ring seated. Following his advice, I pushed the ring into the female connector and, using my wife's cosmetic mirror, manipulated it with the dental pick until I got one edge partially seated in the groove in the wall of the connector.I then used the dental pic and pulled the o ring down into the groove as best I could until I had perhaps 20-25% of the ring seated in the groove. n8dc suggested using a 9/32 quarter inch socket to push the unseated portion of the o ring up into the groove. I tried that repeatedly without success.What worked for me was to use my little finger to push the unseated portion up into the groove. A little fuel leaked out in the process, but it popped right in the first time I abandoned the socket and used my little finger. I popped in the fuel line and it was a tight fit but the leaking has stopped. Total time involved was probably 20 minutes."

As I said earlier, I did mine with the tank off and changed both o rings. I also made up two quick disconnect hoses and fittings so I could drain my 07RG tank without making a mess again, but that is another story.

I am also enclosing 3 pictures that was sent to me that gives you a lot better idea of the inside of the fitting.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Thanks! That's some mighty fine information there! I'll print it and put it in my service manual. I'll also get some Viton o-rings to have on hand as well as to eventually replace the one that I already put in as it is just rubber.
I had no problems at all replacing the lower o-ring of the upper part of the female fitting. I used a dental pick that I purchased from Walmart, along with a small mirror and one of them free small (so as to hold it in my mouth) led flashlights from Harbour Freight. It took me only 20 minutes. You just sit by the bike looking down at the mirror, put the mirror under the fitting, shine the light into the mirror and, while looking down into the mirror, move it around to get the best view and best illumination, and with everything in plain sight, and no twisting of the neck, it's pretty simple to pop the old one out! Then I just pushed the new one up into the fitting as far as I could with my little finger ( after releasing the pressure ), then got my mirror and flashlight into position again, and once everything was in focus again it was very simple to use the dental pick to move the o-ring into it's groove. That was yesterday and today I took it out for a nice ride and as of tonight everything is holding quite nicely.
Also, the o-ring I wound up putting in was purchased from my local NAPA store. The inside dimension is 10mm and the thickness is 2mm, which is the same as the one I took out. I'ts just rubber so I'll eventually change it over. The one I took out lasted 5 years & 55K miles so I think I have enough time and I'll replace them all with Viton o-rings.
Thanks again for everyone's input and it was really nice to be able to solve this problem for just a couple of bucks!.... God Bless the Internet!!!!!ThumbUp

 

[MDF48]

Bottom O Ring

Yep, the bottom one in the female fitting is easy once you do it. The upper one is harder, but luckily the bottom one is usually the one that causes most of the leaks. I ordered 50 of each and gave all my friends a couple of each to keep with them. Glad you got it fixed. :clapping:

 

[Jack Klarich]

check your vent hose bet it is plugged or pinched