Champion rear brake issue

[scribe5]

I just bought a 2005 Goldwing with a Champion conversion. Bike has about 12,000 miles -- not sure when it was triked. My issue is that the rear brake does not seem to be doing the job well. It's not soft or mushy and the brake pedal travel is not much (about 1 inch or so). But the rear brake alone is not enough to stop the trike. I need to use the front and mainly that. If I really get on the rear pedal hard, it doesn't lock up the wheels or make them chatter or even really slow it down fast. Not being familiar with trikes and how they handle and behave, is this normal? I would think with a disk brake on each wheel and large contact area, the performance would be better. Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[THEREALTRIKKY]

Does it have drum, or disc brakes on this kit? If it's drum brakes, the wheel cylinders may be froze up.

 

[Shimpy]

I've heard this complaint before. I have a 2010 with Champion and use the rear brakes almost exclusivily but got to say I probably can't lock up mine. For normal stopping their are fine though and rarely need the front brakes. I've been told and don't know if it's true or not but when the conversion was done they still use the original rear master cylinder on the bike and it doesn't have the capacity to handle 2 auto calipers on the rear. You also have lots more weight to stop now that it's a trike.

 

[Teal]

ck
1. any oil on pads (easy enough to take off and use some sand paper.)
2. is caliper centered on disc-- giving both pads chance to work (ive seen this as prob)
3.have you tried bleeding
(even thought the pedal is firm i would try that)

The master cycl is plenty capable of doing the job for my bike (1500) and any others i have ridden.
once i got the air out- my rear (disc) wheels will lock easily

 

[dalelj]

Last year when I purchased my new to me 2004 1800 Champion Solid Axle conversion I noticed immediately that the rear did not have stopping power and the rear brakes chattered at times.

Upon inspection I found the axle seals were leaking and brake pads were soaked in axle grease. Fixed the axle seals and replace rotors and brake pads and it was an improvement but still not happy.

The bike had Rivco floorboards and brake pedal. The floorboard would not allow any adjust to the brake pedal. So I switched out my floorboards with Kuryakn boards, heel toe shifter. and brake pedal. This new setup allowed me to increase the pedal height and now it is great. No more issues.

Dale

 

[Ozarkryder]

Plenty of advice on the brake thing - our 2004 Champion stops pretty well, but I always use both front and rear brakes, just as I do on my 2 wheeler.
As far of when it was triked, on ours there is a blue and silver "VIN" sticker on the right side of the swingarm a slightly hidden behind the exhaust about even with the front of the tire. There is a 6 digit number and a date, (ours says Sept. 2006) - I would think that it is the manufacturing date, and it would be no more than a month or 2 until the conversion was done.

 

[hank43]

I have a '09 Kawasaki vn1700 Voyager with the Champion trike kit on it, done 3 months ago. You can not lock up the rear brakes, even if you stand on the pedal. Disappointed in the braking ....... Been back to the installer once, will go again til they get it right. I don't think the ability to skid (i.e. "lock up the wheels") is a good idea, but the rear brakes should be able to stop this trike. The one thing I kept hearing over and over before getting the trike was how well it would stop, because of the dual disc in the rear. Sorry, I haven't seen that yet.

hank

 

[Ray55]

I just put a Champion kit on my 2009 Kawasaki and had lots of brake issues trying to adjust/bleed the brakes. I think that one of my issues is that I used the existing brake hose on the rear due to having ABS/linked brakes and not replacing the front hoses. I think that I pumped more that a quart of fluid thru the rear calipers. One thing that I did was to increase the master cylinder actuating rod length by one turn and it almost doubled the actuating force. Another thing is that we are using a master cylinder that was sized to operate one piston on the rear caliper and with the Kawi Champion trikes you are now operating 4 pistons.

Ray
2009 Kawi/ Champion
Tijuana Border

 

[1800 06 Champion Trike]

No problems stopping my 06 Champion S/A kit.
Although, I do use the rear brakes plus the front if needed.

 

[scribe5]

Thanks for all the replies...This gives me a good amount of info and things to check. It does seem the stopping power of the rear brakes is wanting. I will check for seal leakage and then go to bleeding the lines.

 

[John Luciano]

You should not depend on the rear brakes to stop that trike. Bad practice to only use rears. 80% of your stopping power is in the front. You are not riding a 2 wheeler. It will not fall over if you lock the front. If you were to remove the power booster from your car, or drive an old car ( 1950s) and disconnected the front brakes you would never stop it.
We do not have POWER brakes on these machines. Do not think Car and do not compare it to a motorcycle.

 

[scribe5]

You should not depend on the rear brakes to stop that trike. Bad practice to only use rears. 80% of your stopping power is in the front. You are not riding a 2 wheeler. It will not fall over if you lock the front. If you were to remove the power booster from your car, or drive an old car ( 1950s) and disconnected the front brakes you would never stop it.
We do not have POWER brakes on these machines. Do not think Car and do not compare it to a motorcycle.

I agree...it's just that it seems to me there should be more braking oomph coming from the rear. But with only about 300 miles under my belt on this my first trike (compared with 47 years of motorcycle riding) I am definitely a newbie.

 

[nobby355]

Hi, I have the same issue on my kwak voyager and the issue is that the master cylinder does not have the force applied, via your foot, to deliver the pressure required to give effective braking. Unlike a motor vehicle (or a car as we say in the UK) it does not have a servo (vacuum pump or brake assist) to give said pressure/assistance. I've been looking around for a small servo to probably help but to no avail. In the interim I have fitted a 3/4 inch clutch master cylinder off of a land rover and this has helped.

 

[bikerbillone]

You should not depend on the rear brakes to stop that trike. Bad practice to only use rears. 80% of your stopping power is in the front. You are not riding a 2 wheeler. It will not fall over if you lock the front. If you were to remove the power booster from your car, or drive an old car ( 1950s) and disconnected the front brakes you would never stop it.
We do not have POWER brakes on these machines. Do not think Car and do not compare it to a motorcycle.

This post makes sense along with post #3. My Road Smith does not respond with the rear brakes as I anticipated even with the huge brake pads.

 

[scribe5]

Hi, I have the same issue on my kwak voyager and the issue is that the master cylinder does not have the force applied, via your foot, to deliver the pressure required to give effective braking. Unlike a motor vehicle (or a car as we say in the UK) it does not have a servo (vacuum pump or brake assist) to give said pressure/assistance. I've been looking around for a small servo to probably help but to no avail. In the interim I have fitted a 3/4 inch clutch master cylinder off of a land rover and this has helped.

That's an interesting thought. I wonder why the trike manufacturers (I am assuming they are all the same in this regard) haven't given more thought to better rear braking. I always use the front when stopping, but having more help from the rear wouldn't hurt and might take some stress off the forks, which already are stressed from being raked, steering and extra weight.

 

[Teal]

Hank,, most installers dont take time to bleed properly-- what ive learned da hard way. The kit maker told me "they would lock up if get the air out.

 

[scribe5]

Hank,, most installers dont take time to bleed properly-- what ive learned da hard way. The kit maker told me "they would lock up if get the air out.

I've bled the brakes and clutch on my VTX1800--any special insights/suggestions on doing the Champion? I think I will give this a try as part of my "just bought a used bike and need to do my own maintenance just to make sure."

 

[SEABILL]

The installation instructions should have the procedure for bleeding the brakes.

Installation Instructions

 

[scribe5]

The installation instructions should have the procedure for bleeding the brakes.

Installation Instructions

I will check this out---thanks for the linkThumbUp

 

[hank43]

The installation instructions should have the procedure for bleeding the brakes.

Installation Instructions

You mean this? from the official Champion installation manual dated 11/01/2012?

"e. Use brake fluid specified on the master cylinder and bleed rear brake system. Thoroughly bleed the system of any air using the upper bleeders on rear brake calipers."

Not a whole lot of help there......

As I stated before, locking up the brakes and skidding is not a good thing, but I DO think they should work better than this. You gotta figure, two people and the 1100 pounds plus weight of the trike should have better brakes. While we're at it, how come Champion does not support the linked ABS brakes that were on this bike before triking?

Hank

 

[scribe5]

You mean this? from the official Champion installation manual dated 11/01/2012?

"e. Use brake fluid specified on the master cylinder and bleed rear brake system. Thoroughly bleed the system of any air using the upper bleeders on rear brake calipers."

Not a whole lot of help there......

As I stated before, locking up the brakes and skidding is not a good thing, but I DO think they should work better than this. You gotta figure, two people and the 1100 pounds plus weight of the trike should have better brakes. While we're at it, how come Champion does not support the linked ABS brakes that were on this bike before triking?

Hank

You're right...I read it and not a lot there. Even though I am very new to trikes, I figure the back breaking should be better. Something is not right. The brake pedal is not soft or mushy, as might indicate air in the line, but the braking is minimal. It's got disk brakes on each back wheel, plus the surface area, should equal some decent deceleration. I really like the linked brakes on my VTX 1800. Kinda lame to disconnect on the trike.

 

[scribe5]

I found this on the Champion website under their FAQ's. I wonder if this might be the issue:

Champion’s trike kit disc brakes require a break in period to “bed” the brakes. In properly bedded brakes there is a uniform coating of brake pad material transferred from the pads to the surfaces of cast iron rotors. This “bedding” allows the compounds in the pad material to cure or dissipate in a controlled manner and results in improved stopping efficiency. If the brake pads get too hot before the bonding constituents in the pad material have cured or burned off, the pad surfaces will glaze over. The symptom of glazed pads is loss of stopping ability no matter how hard the brake pedal is applied. This “glaze” must be removed as described below before attempting to bed the brakes.



Operating in a safe location and in a safe manner the trike owner should take the following steps to bed the rear brakes in a newly-converted trike kit:


A. Make a vigorous, straight-line braking deceleration from a moderate speed … but do not lock-up the rear wheels or bring the trike to a full stop;

B. Wait 2-3 minutes, accelerate and repeat Step A. above;

C. Repeat Steps A. and B. 5 to 7 times;

D. After the last stop, allow the brakes to cool to the ambient temperature.


1) Remove the brake pads. If the pads are glazed, break the glaze with 80-grit emery cloth. Chamfer the “leading” (top) edge of the pads with a file or Dremel-style hand grinder;



2) If the pads are contaminated with oil, grease or brake fluid, clean the pads with a commercial cleaner product such as 3M “High Power Brake Cleaner” or CRC “Brakleen” Brake Parts Cleaner;



Maybe I should clean or replace the pads and see if that helps. I wonder if others with problems might have been suffering from the same thing?

 

[Shimpy]

I found this on the Champion website under their FAQ's. I wonder if this might be the issue:

Champion’s trike kit disc brakes require a break in period to “bed” the brakes. In properly bedded brakes there is a uniform coating of brake pad material transferred from the pads to the surfaces of cast iron rotors. This “bedding” allows the compounds in the pad material to cure or dissipate in a controlled manner and results in improved stopping efficiency. If the brake pads get too hot before the bonding constituents in the pad material have cured or burned off, the pad surfaces will glaze over. The symptom of glazed pads is loss of stopping ability no matter how hard the brake pedal is applied. This “glaze” must be removed as described below before attempting to bed the brakes.



Operating in a safe location and in a safe manner the trike owner should take the following steps to bed the rear brakes in a newly-converted trike kit:


A. Make a vigorous, straight-line braking deceleration from a moderate speed … but do not lock-up the rear wheels or bring the trike to a full stop;

B. Wait 2-3 minutes, accelerate and repeat Step A. above;

C. Repeat Steps A. and B. 5 to 7 times;

D. After the last stop, allow the brakes to cool to the ambient temperature.


1) Remove the brake pads. If the pads are glazed, break the glaze with 80-grit emery cloth. Chamfer the “leading” (top) edge of the pads with a file or Dremel-style hand grinder;



2) If the pads are contaminated with oil, grease or brake fluid, clean the pads with a commercial cleaner product such as 3M “High Power Brake Cleaner” or CRC “Brakleen” Brake Parts Cleaner;



Maybe I should clean or replace the pads and see if that helps. I wonder if others with problems might have been suffering from the same thing?

It sounds like a lot of BS to me. Why don't all the other trikes and cars have this same procedure to break-in the brakes? Mine (Champion) uses VW brakes and I'll bet that VW doesn't have customers going through all that crap to bed in the brakes.

 

[scribe5]

I hear what you are saying...and it makes a lot of sense. But why go through the trouble of putting that info on the company website in the first place?

I did find this, though:
http://www.napabrakes.com/wps/wcm/c...4f42b5fc1/DiscPadBreakinFinal.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

 

[willom]

My trike was converted to champion a few weeks ago, when I picked it up from my installer he noted that the brakes felt hard and needed some force to quickly stop the trike, but if the brakes were depressed a bit and hit a second time the peddle will travel a little farther and will stop on a dime with little pressure. My installer also a good friend had bled the brakes several times and rechecked the system and could find nothing wrong. I have no problem with the way the brakes operate and have had no issue with stopping the trike.

 

[scribe5]

My trike was converted to champion a few weeks ago, when I picked it up from my installer he noted that the brakes felt hard and needed some force to quickly stop the trike, but if the brakes were depressed a bit and hit a second time the peddle will travel a little farther and will stop on a dime with little pressure. My installer also a good friend had bled the brakes several times and rechecked the system and could find nothing wrong. I have no problem with the way the brakes operate and have had no issue with stopping the trike.

Others have said the same thing...when the weather clears here, I'm going to give it a try.

 

[bikerbillone]

Someone posted, if memory serves, the braking system on a motorcycle under performs for the large car tire and brakes on the rear of the trike. This sounds logical. Just gotta use that front brake in unison unless it's a soft stop.

 

[scribe5]

Someone posted, if memory serves, the braking system on a motorcycle under performs for the large car tire and brakes on the rear of the trike. This sounds logical. Just gotta use that front brake in unison unless it's a soft stop.

I gotta do more investigating...maybe pull the tires and do a bleed to see if something is wrong. But since I have only put a few hundreds miles and never rode a trike before, it might just be the nature of the beast.

 

[bikerbillone]

I do believe it's the nature of the beast, I just had my brake line bled, new fluid, all that good stuff, no change I can feel.....Just learn to adjust riding/driving habits.....

 

[scribe5]

Grrrrr...I hate when this old dog has to learn a new trick. :gah: