High Altitude ECM chip

[GoSlo]

I hope this isn't a repeat of an earlier thread since I'm fairly new to the site.

Had a noise in my new 2013 TG engine that sounded like a loose screw rattling around inside the engine when I hit 3000 RPM in most gears. Brought it in to my dealer, they did a test ride and came back saying it was "just pinging" and nothing seriously wrong. They said they have to take the ECM chip out, send it back to Harley to be remapped for high altitude. This process can take anywhere from 10 to 15 days even if my dealer ships it overnight to them!!

This is my fourth H-D, so many of my following questions are probably rhetorical since Harley rarely does things that "make sense".

• Has anyone else run into this problem? Did the remapped chip stop the pinging?

• If Harley knows the bike is being shipped to a dealer at altitude, wouldn't (shouldn't) they map the bike correctly for altitude?

• Why don't they have "pre-mapped" chips ready to send out when they get one in so there's not such a long wait?

My next question for you is with the high altitude mapping done on the ECM, what happens when I ride in much lower elevations? I live around the Denver area, but ride all over the country.


Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[THEREALTRIKKY]

I hate to say it, but sounds like a "crock" to me. That's one of the purposes for O2 sensors, to adjust the air/fuel mixture within a certain range for such "issues". Just to be nosey, what about fuel? If you've ever run a hot rod with engine work done, you learn real fast about the "engine knock" from a low octane rating. Perhaps that's a factor here also? Just bouncing ideas around...

 

[Sloufoot]

I'm going to have to call a BS here ! The stealership can do any tuning mod to the ECM right in their service bay ! I have never heard of a "high altitude" chip remapping . Maybe they are just renaming their one map name. They can reset the timing or the fuel as needed. But State & Federal laws that limit what they can set things to. That being said, they can still tune the AFR to correct parameters . At what throttle & gear are you getting the ping at ? Like 6th gear & WOT? Lean fuel mixtures can be bad for pinging. If the wrong map was put in at the factory, & never caught before you got the trike, it could be fixed in a short. They might have to get an OK from MoCo, but they should be able to do that in house.
If they can't do their own tuning find a new dealer.
By the way,what octane fuel are you running ? I saw a post the other day where a guy was mad to have to buy something other than regular gas. If you can find it run 93 octane.

 

[GoSlo]

I only run 91 in it so far. Have been told that you can run lower every other tank if you're out riding all day long on a long trip, but I've not done that with the TriGlide.

I also thought the dealership could remap the chip because they've done it before on my Limited when it started pinging. It was the first time I'd heard of high altitude mapping.

The pinging mostly occurs in 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gears at around 3,000 RPMs.

Guess I'll go talk to them again about this.

 

[jcolson]

Had the same problem with my 2011 tri-glide. Had new jugs put on & a 2nd Dyno & the pinging is gone,& I have High compression piston, cams , heads & exhaust. It does sound like a srew bobbing around in the motor.

 

[PIGGI]

My 12 Trike does the same thing and my ECM is at the factory now, been about 10 days. The HD techs will change the timing maps in the affected rpm range to stop the ping. It's a warranty issue thats why the dealer won't fix yet. When the techs are sure they have the right fix it will be sent out to the dealers. At least that's what I was told.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

It's not really a "chip" ECM remap. It's just a calibration flash they are talking about. The dealer can do it in house but there are several reasons why they may be telling you this BS.

1. The dealer is charged by MoCo each time they use the Digital Technician to flash an ECM. The dealer has paperwork to fill out to get the charges reversed.. I've never heard of an altitude flash either.

2. They tell you they must send it out because they want to sell you a SE Tuner and have you pay for a dyno tune or canned flash. This reverts the cost to your pocket not theirs.

The ECM is specifically designed to adjust to altitude changes. As you ride it measures free oxygen via the 02 sensors, MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure and air temperature. This is just like a fuel injected car. Take a carborated bike or car to Pike's Peek and you will feel a huge difference in altitude but not a EFI system.

Bikes are shipped out from the factory period. Doesn't matter to which dealership it goes to anymore. All bikes are 50 state compliant now, if I'm not mistaken, unless California still has special concerns.

But anyway... I don't know everything. Just tossing out thoughts.

 

[GoSlo]

Since at this time I have no intention of paying to upgrade cams, air filter, pipes or anything else to make this pinging go away I'll talk to my dealership again to see if I can get a better or more complete answer as to why it has to be done like this. If I do find out its just because they don't want to fill out paperwork, I'll be pretty

My dealership worked with me on my "old" Limited when it was pinging. They fought with the techs at the MoCo until they agreed to replace the chip and dyno it for me at no cost. A few months later they came out with a "fix" that was sent out to all the dealerships.

Thanks for the info!!

 

[Bikerbozo]

I must be lucking out with my dealer back on Long Island. He has adjusted my ECM twice on '10 TG. Both times improved it (no cost). Even if a dealer doesn't have a "High Altitude" flash, there is a new invention. It's called "E-mail". the MoCo should look into it. Unless this program is a lot bigger than I believe. and even then, there are ways to get it to any dealer.

 

[screwball]

Ditto the great dealers. When I took the '09 in for the 1000 mile and 5000 mile service they told me they 'reflashed' the computer to richen the mixture. It didn't ping, and seemed to run great before. Ran 'greater' when we got it back. Never did have a heat problem. When we bought the '11 we ordered it with the SE air cleaner and Reinhardt mufflers. They said the remapped the computer to correct it for the changes in air and exhaust. Never rode that bike before the changes, so can't speak to any improvments.

Good Luck!

 

[msocko3]

It's not really a "chip" ECM remap. It's just a calibration flash they are talking about. The dealer can do it in house but there are several reasons why they may be telling you this BS.

1. The dealer is charged by MoCo each time they use the Digital Technician to flash an ECM. The dealer has paperwork to fill out to get the charges reversed.. I've never heard of an altitude flash either.

2. They tell you they must send it out because they want to sell you a SE Tuner and have you pay for a dyno tune or canned flash. This reverts the cost to your pocket not theirs.

The ECM is specifically designed to adjust to altitude changes. As you ride it measures free oxygen via the 02 sensors, MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure and air temperature. This is just like a fuel injected car. Take a carborated bike or car to Pike's Peek and you will feel a huge difference in altitude but not a EFI system.

Bikes are shipped out from the factory period. Doesn't matter to which dealership it goes to anymore. All bikes are 50 state compliant now, if I'm not mistaken, unless California still has special concerns.

But anyway... I don't know everything. Just tossing out thoughts.

:Agree: I'm with Wizzard, the dealer is trying to take an easy road for them vs just taking care of it. Any time a dealer says its just pinging and nothing seriously wrong I'd question their choice of words or priorities. Pinging if left unchecked can and will lead to piston ring damage and possibly a cracked piston.

 

[GoSlo]

Thanks for everyone's input on this. I'm headed over to the dealership now to talk with them again about this and will let you know what their response is. Normally, I'd rate my dealership as excellent based on all my past issues, so hopefully they'll do me right this time too.

If it turns out I have to send the chip back, I'm waiting until after our Children's Hospital Toy Run. After several years of bitter cold and/or snow, this year it's going to be 65 degrees and sunny!

 

[Sloufoot]

Where is Centennial Co. located? I am familiar with Centennial Wy? But not Co.

 

[PIGGI]

Centennial, Co is a suburb of Denver, south west of the city, next to Littleton.

 

[Sloufoot]

:Agree: I'm with Wizzard, the dealer is trying to take an easy road for them vs just taking care of it. Any time a dealer says its just pinging and nothing seriously wrong I'd question their choice of words or priorities. Pinging if left unchecked can and will lead to piston ring damage and possibly a cracked piston.

+1 on that ! And the bad part of those damages is they may not show up for a long while. But when it does you may not be under warranty......:Trike1:

 

[msocko3]

+1 on that ! And the bad part of those damages is they may not show up for a long while. But when it does you may not be under warranty......:Trike1:

They have your money, no sweat they'll just have more of it from out of warranty repairs.

 

[GoSlo]

Last night I went to the dealership and called "BS" on what they're telling me about this chip. After I was done ranting and raving, they stood by the fact that the techs at the MoCo are the only ones that have the fix and they can't do a mass release until it jumps through all the EPA hoops.

When I told them that the same thing happened on my 2011 Limited and they dealt with the techs to figure things out and fixed the problem right there in the dealership, the (new) service manager said the same fix they used before won't work on this bike because the engine has changed.....really....really? The dealership manager even called the regional service rep and asked him to help out. He refused until my problem is given a reference number by customer service.

So at this point, I'm going to call customer service, which I know is useless, but still necessary to get this magic number. Then I'm going to start sending e-mails to whoever I can think of at H-D to find out why I or anyone else has to go through this.

Very frustrating!!!

 

[PIGGI]

Tell them to send your ECM back to the techs for the update flash. That's where mine is right now. Your scoot must be at Rocky Mtn HD.

 

[screwball]

From personal experience, wife and I ride our trikes from home at 1450 feet above sea level to just over 6000 feet in Wrightwood, Ca. for lunch and over 7000 feet when we run to the Grand Canyon. Neither trike has 'pinged' or lost any power, like my carburated Dyna used to do. The computer adjusts the timing and fuel mixture just like is should. On the 'other' board, and the trike page on Face Book a couple of others with pinging problems finally admitted to using regular gas. Could you have gotten a bad batch?? If you run it almost empty and then buy a tank of premium did it stop??j

Best of Luck!

 

[GoSlo]

Thanks for the suggestion Screwball, but it's not the gas. I only use Premium (91 or 93 octane). Turns out my complaining to the MoCo worked and they "guarantee" that they'll get my ECM chip turned around in one day. They also let me know that it's just about finished going through the EPA hoops and should be available at dealerships after the first of the year so people don't have to send their chips back.

I still have a question that I can't seem to get an answer for:

How can they make a "custom" flash to stop the pinging for my trike without my trike? Any other work using computers and/or dyno, they make tweaks to things based on each particular bike/trike since no two are the same.

Thanks to everyone for their input and I'll let you all know how the trike runs after I get my ECM back end of next week.

 

[delta]

I think they must use the WAG principle to make a custom tune without your bike physically being there. (Wild A** Guess)

They know the map that is in the ECM. Probably going to play with the timing and fuel tables after they have replicated the problem with their scientific equipment. Then flash it, send it back, then hope for the best.

 

[Sloufoot]

I still have a question that I can't seem to get an answer for:

How can they make a "custom" flash to stop the pinging for my trike without my trike? Any other work using computers and/or dyno, they make tweaks to things based on each particular bike/trike since no two are the same.

Thanks to everyone for their input and I'll let you all know how the trike runs after I get my ECM back end of next week.

Simple, you just put in a map that won't push things into the performance relm. It will do away with anything that that might make things ping in any & all engines. Nothing to do with an individual machine working at it's peak , or optimum performance.
You will probably like it because it will let you give it hell without it pinging. That way you think there is an improvement ! Problem solved !! (Hidden)
:Trike1:

 

[GoSlo]

FOLLOW UP ON THE HIGH ALTITUDE ECM FLASH
Called "customer service" at the MoCo and they were no help at all. Said it was running as intended and refused to let me talk to anyone else because "they would all tell me the same thing". Got a reference number and the service manager called the techs about his very PO'd customer. They had already heard about me and my problem and said they would turn it around in three days...one day shipping out there, one day to re-flash, and one day return shipping. They did just that and I have to say the pinging is now gone. This new flash is almost done getting through the EPA hoops and should be available at the dealerships after the first of the year.

Am I happy? Not completely. Still not convinced I, or anyone else should have to go through this nonsense, and H-D either has no clue how bad their customer service reps are or just don't care.

FUNNY END TO THE STORY: Pinging gone and I take the bike to go home and now I hear a new terrible racket. Took it back in and it turns out the heat shield was loose and rattling. Have no idea if it was doing it before because the pinging was so loud I couldn't have heard it if it was. They tightened everything up and now it's running like it should.

 

[msocko3]

FOLLOW UP ON THE HIGH ALTITUDE ECM FLASH
Called "customer service" at the MoCo and they were no help at all. Said it was running as intended and refused to let me talk to anyone else because "they would all tell me the same thing". Got a reference number and the service manager called the techs about his very PO'd customer. They had already heard about me and my problem and said they would turn it around in three days...one day shipping out there, one day to re-flash, and one day return shipping. They did just that and I have to say the pinging is now gone. This new flash is almost done getting through the EPA hoops and should be available at the dealerships after the first of the year.

Am I happy? Not completely. Still not convinced I, or anyone else should have to go through this nonsense, and H-D either has no clue how bad their customer service reps are or just don't care.

FUNNY END TO THE STORY: Pinging gone and I take the bike to go home and now I hear a new terrible racket. Took it back in and it turns out the heat shield was loose and rattling. Have no idea if it was doing it before because the pinging was so loud I couldn't have heard it if it was. They tightened everything up and now it's running like it should.

Glad you have a happy ending. One of the things that soured me against the MoCo is how its customer service has declined. In the past when I've dealt with them I found them very helpful, they even warrantied the radio in my dads 06 Ultra which was 1 year out of warranty, lots of luck getting something like this these days.