The Odessey of Wilma

[grandpanystrom61]

Nice set up. I was not sure if I needed to go disc brakes in the rear, but will watch and learn what I can here.

All does look nice, yep a few flags or orange flashing lights.

 

[kerryb]

A good finish is all in the prep work, but I use duplicolor engine paint and I have many hours of practice with a rattle can.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Brakes.

I think I have put up my opinion before.....but I will again.

Things to remember.

With a car the rear brakes are at best only 20% of the stopping power.

With a trike the rear brakes are close to 100% of the stopping power.

So the rear brakes off a light car would be woefully underpowered for a trike.

Drum brakes work just fine. They just fade quick.

Disc brakes work good but the whole system needs to upgrade also.

Ok so you can make your drums work or you can make disc work. All about what you want.

To make your drums work.

New or excellent condition drums.

Quality brake shoes.

Put in late style (super beetle) front slave cylinders.

Master cylinder 17 to 19mm bore.

Brake lever at 7 to 1.

To make disc work.

Get a kit that does not have parking brake. As these are intended as a car rear brake. Most NON park brake kits use a front brake caliper.

A 17mm master.

7 to 1 pedal.

 

[kerryb]

Brakes.

I think I have put up my opinion before.....but I will again.

Things to remember.

.

WOW!, thank you, that's the kind of insight I've been looking for. I'll still go for discs but not with the parking brake option. I'll start looking for a hydraulic line lock to get a parking brake. It's nice to be able to let the engine warm up a few minutes without being a slave to the brake pedal in the driveway.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Purdy much all the plain basic kits are the same imported stuff.

The only major difference I see is the caliper mount adapter bracket. Some are stamped and are known to be off dimensions sometimes. Other are a forged and machined bracket and are known to be too thick where it mounts to axle.

So with either one you will have measuring and shimming and possibly some machine work to do to get all set up.

Example of plain Jane kit.

http://carcraftstore.com/reardiscbrakekitwithoute-brake.aspx

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Then the dune buggy brakes.

Buggies like a trike are all rear brake and usually NO front brakes at all.

Buggy brakes are light weigh performance units intended for 100% rear only set ups.

These would be great......but expensive.

http://carcraftstore.com/microstubbrakekit.aspx

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Check you local laws about park vs emergency brake.

A line lock works great as a park brake.

But does not constitute an emergency brake if the hydraulics fail.

The UK law is it has to have emergency brake.

State laws vary. My state does not require much.

 

[kerryb]

It seemed I needed to pull the back wheel to measure the spline length. Then there was the guy at jbugs on the phone who said "front wheel calipers won't fit on the back".

Then I broke the socket extension with a 5' cheater bar at 500 ft/lbs torque trying to break the axle nut loose!

starting to lose my focus on this brake change quest...

so I put it back together, turned the key and fired her up... went for the first blast of the riding season for me. Still doesn't stop very well...but I don't care...its just too much "bleeping" fun to ride! Now I remember why all these headaches are still worth it.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Oh yes, know that to well. I have to say those axle nuts can be a real pain. I used liquid wrench on them over night before I tried to break them free. I still bent a bar, so a bigger stronger cheater bar, and that actually bent the pin and flange on my breaker bar. I welded it up in a set position so I have a breaker bar and finished the job.

At least you can ride and enjoy it, that is what counts.

 

[kerryb]

Just got back from my favorite car service shop...a few seconds of impact wrench and off they came! I put the nuts back on for the ride home with my breaker bar. Now we are ready to proceed with the "stopping".

p.s. maybe its time for me to have an impact wrench. Save money in broken tools and bent stuff!

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Get one of these.

Does axle nuts and flywheels with normal sized hand tools.

http://carcraftstore.com/torquemultilplier.aspx



As a side note.......I dont have one.....but I do have a shop with big tools.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

What Ghia front brakes look like.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

What a NON park brake rear disc kit looks like.



And your brake line probably will not fit/be long enough.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

And.....

If your vw rear axle is 1968 or newer it is long spline.

Older swing axles are short spline.

Also that axle nut does hafta be that tight.

Check the bearings while you are in there. You have a lot of tire on there and that increases the load on them.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Okay, once you get the drums off, you should measure their wall thickness. They maybe to worn for proper stoppage even if you put new brake pads on, just a thought.

Be safe, ride safer.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Beefing up your rear brakes.

If you are using a swing axle trans. (Up to 67) First you must replace the swing axle backing plates with 68 or later ones, so you can install the 57-on 22mm front wheel cylinder or the Super Beetle front 23.8mm.

Depending on year and model of your backing plates you MIGHT have to slot/enlarge the mounting bolt hole for the wheel cylinder. I have used a chain saw file from the hardware store to do this.

Also most front brake wheel cylinders that are installed on the rear are upside down. As in the bleeder nipple is on the low side and the brake line above. It can make it difficult to bleed, but it works.

On the rear of a IRS trans just install the bigger front wheel cylinders and slot the hole as needed. An advantage of the 68-on IRS rear brakes is that the brake shoes are about 1 5/8" wide compared to the 1 3/16" wide shoes used on the swing axle set up.

You also want to get upgraded brake shoes. Something semi metallic and good quality.

Along the lines of aircooled.net's "super stoppers". You used to be able to get the better shoes at your local parts store. But lots of this outdated stuff is getting harder to find.

One step better then the std. IRS rear brakes would be installing the Type-3 rear brakes (65 & earlier for 5-lug drums) Type-3 linings are wider ( 1-3/4") and the drums are larger in diameter and they already have the 22mm cylinders. Or you can use the 23.8mm front super beetle wheel cylinders with the T3 rear brakes. You will have to remove about .550" off the outside snout of the drum to use them with the swing axle short spline transmission. If you get the complete set up, backing plate, drums and all, it's an easy bolt on installation. 5-lug axle splines are 1 7/8" & 4-lug axle splines are 2 1/2" long Now there are other set ups that can be made to work, like some type-2 "Bus" and 181 "Thing" brakes, but they are hard to find and the price can be high.

Because disc brake kits have steadily gone down in price they would probably be cheaper than the Bus or Thing brakes. And disc brakes on the rear is by far the best brake set up as far as fade and upkeep.

To get better pedal you might want to install a 2-psi residual pressure valve in the disc brake line. Or a 10 psi if using drum brakes. Install the residual valve as close to the master cylinder as possible if it does not screw directly into the master cylinder. If your Master cylinder is lower than the brake calipers then you will need the residual pressure valve for sure.

Master cylinders work just the opposite as wheel cylinders. As the MC diameter gets smaller less pedal pressure is required but the longer the movement. The larger the master cylinder bore, the more pedal pressure, (but less throw), is required for the same braking.

The most common master cylinder used is the aftermarket 3/4 inch (19mm). If every thing is set up correct, there is plenty of fluid to do the job. But if the rotors are not true or the drum brakes are out of adjustment you might be lacking on the amount of fluid the 19mm bore master cylinder will push. The buggy 22mm master is very common but may require more pedal pressure than desired.

There are other master cylinders offered with bore diameters, 5/8" to 1", that you can use to adjust pedal throw and/or pressure.

Make sure the pedal comes all the way back after every time the brakes are applied. The brake rod must have a small amount of free play when the pedal is all the way back.

Make sure your pedal ratio is somewhere around 7 to 1. Pivot point to foot vs pivot to cylinder. You must have this mechanical advantage as it dramatically effects pedal pressure needed.

Use Dot-3 fluid and flush the system every two years. Hot & cold, sun and shade and part time use has a tendency to produce moisture in the brake lines much faster than if the lines are under a daily use car. Flush the brake lines with brake fluid, dry air or alcohol. One drop of oil in the fluid will contaminate the fluid.

Never get oil on the linings and forget the "brake clean" as it just dissolves the oil and lets it go deeper into the lining. Race mechanics won't let you touch the lining as even the oil off your hands is not wanted.

 

[kerryb]

I took both sides apart last night, they look brand new! One brake adjuster was stuck in close/shortest position and both rear brake adjusters on rear side were backed in a couple notches too much. Maybe that is one seasons wear (about 800-900 miles). The drums appear to be new, there is so little rust I was shocked after riding in the rain for a weekend in the fall. The pads and drums didn't appear to have any wear on them! Took off the e-cables (no handle for them), anyone need a set of stock e-brake cables that appear brand new? After putting it all back together and adjusting the shoes, the drums seem to be almost perfect, but couldn't get light drag for full turm. Weather and timing haven't permitted a test drive yet to check for improved braking. The giant tires might be a contribution to that...255-70R-15, they are 29" tall after all.

sorry for the long post, but here is where I am after your help, a few phone calls to suppliers, and a bunch of surfing...

https://www.appletreeauto.com/disc-brake-kit-5-on-4-3-4-chevy-fits-short-and-long-spline-hd/

this kit includes ghia front calipers, a forged mounting bracket, a bunch of seals and o-rings, and a friendly knowlegable guy on the phone who patiently answered all my newbe questions. The price at $362.00 is higher than others but it does include forged brackets (less flex) good initial customer service, and free shipping. When I asked about being stock he said no, but four days should be back in stock. Would welcome your approval or warnings, and yes I'll need new brake lines. Should I be shopping for a new master cylinder? , oops, make sure it is 17mm, and my pedal is already greater than 7:1

Kb. p.s. sorry no pics of brakes apart, I forgot.

 

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Looks like most all of the kits.

I like/use the forged brackets and think they are better.

If you can get them in the bolt pattern that matches your wheels, then that is a good thing. It will move your tire in if you are using adapters. So check the inward clearance.

You very possibly could be good with your present master. With more than 7 to 1 ratio a 3/4 would be fine.

Check what you have now.

 

[kerryb]

Looks like most all of the kits.

I like/use the forged brackets and think they are better.

If you can get them in the bolt pattern that matches your wheels, then that is a good thing. It will move your tire in if you are using adapters. So check the inward clearance.

You very possibly could be good with your present master. With more than 7 to 1 ratio a 3/4 would be fine.

Check what you have now.

Checked closely last night, right now the stock Wil-Mac pedals are a 9:1 ratio so that is a plus. Still working out what the bolt pattern is on the current wheels. Now I know the proper way to measure!

In other news...my new shifter arrived. Empi short throw for right side drive cars. Difficult to adjust properly with the body on, and I'm a little disappointed in the lack of precision on the fit of the ball into the linkage socket in the shift box. Good news is I know how it works now so I may be trying to duplicate the mechanism in a shape that doesn't get so close to the passenger peg.

All this trouble after someone got me all excited about a Black Mamba shifter, but they are way too spendy for me!

 

[kerryb]

So I got my disc brake kit, with forged brackets, and disc/hub drilled for chevy wheels. Did a dry run to test fit and noticed more play in the bearings than I'm comfortable with. So now we wait for bearings and seals to arrive. A good time to watch youtube on bearing removal!

Good news is the test fit revealed I use two thin spacer washers to get the disc within .011 of being centered in the caliper...no machining required. Also learned I only have to bleed the top bleeder because the calipers are universal. Either side always has a bleeder pointing up!

Pics to follow when possible.

 

[kerryb]

Well, bleeding began before the brakes went on, but I'll get over it and smarter for it! Bearing removal was quite the adventure, broke several blocks of wood with my big hammer getting the axles out, but the new bearings went in with few issues and the slop is gone. Thank you Snu Snu for suggesting bearings might be needed...they were.

I was very happy with the kit's components and how easy assembly turned out to be. The tricky/fun part turned out to be bending the new brake lines to follow the suspension arm.

Next step will be bleeding the system.

Does anyone know how much pressure is used in a pressure brake bleeding machine? I have a vacuum pump to bleed from the caliper, but it would be nice to put something together to push the fluid in from the master cylinder end.

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Well this was a nice read, so glad to see things moving along for you. All does look nice and it seems you have gotten a lot done already. Pressure feed brake bleeding, well not a fan of it, I know it is suppose to be all that, but over the years I personally do not favor it. Every time it has been done I have excessive wear in brake pads and I don't understand it.

Yes foot pumping is a pain, but that was our job as children. I remember me and my brother's taking turns pumping the brake pedal and waiting for that command from pop's, release! pump! release.

For me, I just ask the wife if she is up for exercise, she ask why, because need to bleed brakes, and of course she is not happy, but she helps and we get the job done.

Nice clean bends in the new brake line, really like how it looks. Is the lug pattern standard VW and American ?

 

[LarryA]

I made a pressure bleeder out of a cheap plastic garden sprayer with the hand pump that screws in to the bottle. then made an adaptor that fastens to the top of the master cylinder.

But I would try conventional bleeding first.....bench bleed m/c first, then keep it full......

The most important thing is to bleed longest run first, and above all make sure that the point where the bleed screw "seats" is the high point.....I have been fooled by the bleeder screw appearing to be at the high point but when mounted there was room for an air bubble on the caliper.....so had to tip caliper upright, then bled fine.

 

[kerryb]

Nice clean bends in the new brake line, really like how it looks. Is the lug pattern standard VW and American ?

Yes, the rotors were ordered with a porshe pattern and chevy 5 x 4 3/4 drilled holes. Then I put in studs that were 12mm on one end and 7/16 (chevy) on the other. I used high strength loctite on the studs because I don't want them coming out.

Another question...I have about .015" runout on one disc. What steps would be recommended to find the source of the problem? Axle nuts are only torqued to about 25lbs so far.

Thanks, kb

 

[grandpanystrom61]

I could be wrong, but as more torque is put on the axle nut than the runout should decrease if that is the issue. I know it takes a lot of strength to get 200lbs torque on those nuts, a big bar helped me set mine to spec., of course I also need to get a much bigger torque wrench.

I would see if all trued up more when you have at least 100lbs torque set.

 

[kerryb]

Wow!

Braking is now AMAZING, with some effort I can lock up the rear wheels. Pedal is still soft but we'll fix that. Its nice to have brakes.

 

[kerryb]

Pulling power!

So the adventures of Wilma have entered a new chapter...pulling a tent camper trailer. What was once a great thing is now my downfall. The rear tires are too big. They are giving me nice high freeway flyer gearing, but I now lack the torque to pull a 450lb. trailer up the hills on the Pa. turnpike without being in the draft of a semi truck. I'm sure part of the problem is aerodynamics ( the trailer is a rectangular brick 4' x 2' x7' ), but I have to decide what size tires to put on my 15" wheels to get back some significant torque that was given up.

Links or leads to info that would help pick a size would be much appreciated

I should go measure again but if I recall the current tires are 275 75R15. Which are 33 inches tall! About 3000 engine rpm to go 70 mph With the cost of tires, I would like to make a good choice the first time

 

[kerryb]

New tires

I had 28" diameter tires (not 33's!) Now it has 25.5's. Torque is noticably improved, as well as acceleration. Top speed suffered some..75mph at 4000rpm, down from somewhere above 83mph. The jury is still out on trailer pulling power, but time will tell.

 

[kerryb]

Carb icing?

I had a busy couple weeks while I tried to figure out a stalling issue. Noticed when coasting to a traffic light with the clutch disengaged, it would quit but restart easily. If I gave it just enough throttle to stay running while coasting, sometimes it would stay at idle while waiting for the light to change. After a lot of research on the samba, cleaning the carb ( it was clean and looks new in and out) , setting the valves, plugs look good, compression is good on all four, checking timing, I finally stumbled on posts about carb icing! So I used my infrared thermometer to measure temps on the engine after a hot romp and a quick stop. Found block temps up to 175 *F, and carb temps at mid 60's F! Finally cured the problem by cleaning a little carbon out of the manifold preheat tube that runs from one exhaust pipe to the other, boy was I surprised that worked. So after a bunch more reading about the "infamous" flat spot on a 34PICT3 carb, I experimented with accelerator pump output and cured the stumble with almost max stroke on accelerator pump. I am so pleased with the way it runs now and how nice the idle is. I didn't even use many choice words! Nice how the info is out there if you read enough stuff....

 

[grandpanystrom61]

Very intersting info, why, because I have that cross over tube on my 1600. I will have to put this down in my book of tricks and what can happen. Thank you for sharing this information and have a great week.