Primary Oil Change newbie confused?

[Rooster57]

Have 2016 Harley TriGlide and have just started changing my own fluids..........

...Now, regarding Primary fluid change levelJust a Derby Cover fluid drain and change) ....Manual says 38 oz to wet refill in one place....in another place it refers to 34 oz for refill.

.....I put 38 oz. in and it seemed to actually go much higher than Harley originally had the level (level rose well above the bottom of the clutch plate) ....so, I just put 34 oz. in it and it just touched the bottom of the clutch plate that moves open and shut when I work the clutch.

......some people on net say use only 1 qt.... some say fill with 38 oz........some say fill to the bottom of clutch plate. (and I've recently added a lift kit to trike if that matters)

....Can someone please tell me how much I should be putting in ????? ....am pulling out head hairs with my indecision on proper level of the primary fluid

........(and I didn't have that many hairs to start with anyway!):xzqxz::xzqxz:

 

[Papa Zook]

This is a common argument. The Harley factory service manual newer model touring bikes/trikes call for 38oz in a 'wet' primary and thats what I go by. I figure the Harley engineers who designed, built and tested their machines know more about them than I do. When in doubt, follow directions is a good rule of thumb.

Also, be sure to drain it hot. Not just crank and idle hot, but after a good ride hot. This will insure a complete drain and all the suspended clutch wear particulates will be disbursed in the oil when it drains so you will get a cleaner primary.

ThumbUp

 

[Rooster57]

Well, I just put 34 Oz. in it...............But, I think I'm gonna run out there and pork another 4 oz. in primary.......If thats what you've been doing with no slippage or anything, then I will too.

....Thanks!

 

[Papa Zook]

Well, I just put 34 Oz. in it...............But, I think I'm gonna run out there and pork another 4 oz. in primary.......If thats what you've been doing with no slippage or anything, then I will too.

....Thanks!

I have never experienced slippage with 38 oz. Did you drain it when the oil was good and hot?

Not saying there aren't guys running less than 38oz with no problems, just telling you that I go by the factory service manual as I have liability as a shop.

Other than normal oil change services, most of the primary oil changes done at my shop are done when adding a trike conversion and I am replacing the stock drive belt with a new, longer belt as required for the longer wheelbase trike conversions, so I am removing the inner and outer primary. If the motor is hot, and the primary cover comes off as is the case on my trike builds, I always get a good, complete drain and 45 oz is what goes back in when the primary comes off, 38 oz when just the derby cover comes off.

 

[Papa Zook]

Here's what J&P Cycles has to say about primary oil levels. Like me, most shops CYA by using factory specs in their service work.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

Have 2016 Harley TriGlide and have just started changing my own fluids.............Now, regarding Primary fluid change levelJust a Derby Cover fluid drain and change) ....Manual says 38 oz to wet refill in one place....in another place it refers to 34 oz for refill......I put 38 oz. in and it seemed to actually go much higher than Harley originally had the level (level rose well above the bottom of the clutch plate) ....so, I just put 34 oz. in it and it just touched the bottom of the clutch plate that moves open and shut when I work the clutch.......some people on net say use only 1 qt.... some say fill with 38 oz........some say fill to the bottom of clutch plate. (and I've recently added a lift kit to trike if that matters) ....Can someone please tell me how much I should be putting in ????? ....am pulling out head hairs with my indecision on proper level of the primary fluid ........(and I didn't have that many hairs to start with anyway!):xzqxz::xzqxz:

Didn't anyone notice ( Just a Derby Cover fluid drain and change )

That's not a primary fluid change:Shrug:

Surprised you got any fluid out at all. If you didn't pull the drain plug, I'm sure you have way to much fluid now. How did you get much in without it running out

 

[Rooster57]

I refered to it being a "Derby Cover change" just to mean that I'm not removing the Primary cover which would then require a total fluid (45 oz) change.

 

[Rooster57]

Thanks again Papa Zook!

That's all the clarification I needed...........If thats what you do in you shop = "Good enough for me!"

One would think to normally look in manual at fluid capacity and just drain and replace with the 38 oz new primer fluid with nothing left to say.

.....It was just when I searched the net AND talked with some dudes on the customer side of the Harley store counter, I was being told "Just replace with 1 qt." as anymore could cause clutch slippage.....some others on the net would say the same.............some others on net would say "replace with 38oz."

....and yes, I warm it up and let it drain for 30 mins to an hour before plugging and refilling.

.........Its just that reading all this mixed opinion advice caused me to "Wince" a little with insecurity (as I AM a newbie to motorcycles I do admit)



............................. So, many thanks for the sound advice! ......I want to prolong the trike performance for as long as possible with proper maintenance.

..... Many Thanks!

 

[Papa Zook]

I refered to it being a "Derby Cover change" just to mean that I'm not removing the Primary cover which would then require a total fluid (45 oz) change.

I knew what you meant.

Thanks again Papa Zook!

That's all the clarification I needed...........If thats what you do in you shop = "Good enough for me!"

One would think to normally look in manual at fluid capacity and just drain and replace with the 38 oz new primer fluid with nothing left to say.

.....It was just when I searched the net AND talked with some dudes on the customer side of the Harley store counter, I was being told "Just replace with 1 qt." as anymore could cause clutch slippage.....some others on the net would say the same.............some others on net would say "replace with 38oz."

....and yes, I warm it up and let it drain for 30 mins to an hour before plugging and refilling.

.........Its just that reading all this mixed opinion advice caused me to "Wince" a little with insecurity (as I AM a newbie to motorcycles I do admit)



............................. So, many thanks for the sound advice! ......I want to prolong the trike performance for as long as possible with proper maintenance.

..... Many Thanks!

This has been debated for years on other forums and I'm sure 1 to 1.3 quarts will work fine so its not that big a deal either way. I just go by the book because I get paid to do things by the book.

 

[Jack Klarich]

I put in enough fluid to meet the bottom of the clutch basket

Never had any problems

My first change on the 17 I measured only 24 0z drained out hot

Not enough fluid

All my bikes in the last 20 years get the same treatment Never any clutch issues

standing level for the most part makes it easier on a trike JMO

 

[tfdeputydawg]

I refered to it being a "Derby Cover change" just to mean that I'm not removing the Primary cover which would then require a total fluid (45 oz) change.

Did you remove the drain plug?

 

[HDB0B]

2014 - With lift kit - I use 40 ounces of H-D Formula+ primary fluid. You gotta keep that compensator up front lubed well. I've never had any slippage issues in 32k miles. I change it every time I do the motor oil change. (Tranny every other time).

 

[Rooster57]

Hey Mr. Fixit,

Papa Zook gave great advise I think by stating to go with the manual recommendation that came with the trike...........However, I misinformed ya'll by stating the book calls for 38 oz for wet refill and 34 oz for same refill in another book place...........I went back to my 2016 book that came with trike and it says wet refill is 34 oz in 2 different book places... (38 oz. for Dry refill only) ...trike book also states "Do not overfill" as it may cause difficulty with locating Neutral and clutch slippage. ect.

...anyway, 34 oz. takes my refill level to appx 1/2 the distance between your green factory line and your personal red line level on your diagram. (34 0z. level stops just at the clutch plate)

.......so, I guess it doesn't matter if the clutch pads are partially covered with the refill?

....and exactly what is the compensator you refer to and where is it located? (Yes, I know its a dumb question but I'm new to motorcycles....still learning):xzqxz:

Thanks!

 

[rhino 2]

Lotta over thinking going on......

 

[Jack Klarich]

Hey Mr. Fixit,

Papa Zook gave great advise I think by stating to go with the manual recommendation that came with the trike...........However, I misinformed ya'll by stating the book calls for 38 oz for wet refill and 34 oz for same refill in another book place...........I went back to my 2016 book that came with trike and it says wet refill is 34 oz in 2 different book places... (38 oz. for Dry refill only) ...trike book also states "Do not overfill" as it may cause difficulty with locating Neutral and clutch slippage. ect.

...anyway, 34 oz. takes my refill level to appx 1/2 the distance between your green factory line and your personal red line level on your diagram. (34 0z. level stops just at the clutch plate)

.......so, I guess it doesn't matter if the clutch pads are partially covered with the refill?

....and exactly what is the compensator you refer to and where is it located? (Yes, I know its a dumb question but I'm new to motorcycles....still learning):xzqxz:

Thanks!

#11 is the front compensator sprocket it gets lubed from the primary oil

 

[Rooster57]

Ok, I studied compensator diagram and went to youtube so I now understand about the compensator......Looks to me like in order to get primary fluid lever close enough to level of compensator location=It will require appx. 38oz (wet refill) of primary fluid ...I see why Mr. Fixit uses 40 oz. with lift kit. (according to his diagram)

.....This 38 oz. (or 40 oz.) refill definately takes the primary fluid level above the clutch pads bottom level and submerses pads somewhat in primary fluid it appears.

....so, evidently this does not cause any issues with most of ya'll ? .....the 38-40 oz level most surely helps the compensator lubrication issue.

 

[vito]

Ok, I studied compensator diagram and went to youtube so I now understand about the compensator......Looks to me like in order to get primary fluid lever close enough to level of compensator location=It will require appx. 38oz (wet refill) of primary fluid ...I see why Mr. Fixit uses 40 oz. with lift kit. (according to his diagram)

.....This 38 oz. (or 40 oz.) refill definately takes the primary fluid level above the clutch pads bottom level and submerses pads somewhat in primary fluid it appears.

....so, evidently this does not cause any issues with most of ya'll ? .....the 38-40 oz level most surely helps the compensator lubrication issue.

The compensator does not need to be submerged in oil. It's only function is to absorb shocks in the drive train. Normally, it doesn't move. The primary lube is there to lube the chain. Everything else gets enough lube from chain cast off. The clutch will tend to drag if over lubed (submerged at all) and make shifting clunky and neutral hard to find.

Why would one need more oil with a lift kit?

 

[rhino 2]

The compensator does not need to be submerged in oil. It's only function is to absorb shocks in the drive train. Normally, it doesn't move. The primary lube is there to lube the chain. Everything else gets enough lube from chain cast off. The clutch will tend to drag if over lubed (submerged at all) and make shifting clunky and neutral hard to find.

Why would one need more oil with a lift kit?

See post # 14...........

 

[Jack Klarich]

The compensator does not need to be submerged in oil. It's only function is to absorb shocks in the drive train. Normally, it doesn't move. The primary lube is there to lube the chain. Everything else gets enough lube from chain cast off. The clutch will tend to drag if over lubed (submerged at all) and make shifting clunky and neutral hard to find.

Why would one need more oil with a lift kit?

No the compensator does not however the spokes pick up the oil and lubes the sprocket and chain The inner parts of the sprocket are supposed to get lubed this way

HD has had trouble in the past with fretting of the sprocket, the newer version have addressed this issue

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/big-twin-compensator

Read here

 

[HDB0B]

Hey Mr. Fixit,

Papa Zook gave great advise I think by stating to go with the manual recommendation that came with the trike...........However, I misinformed ya'll by stating the book calls for 38 oz for wet refill and 34 oz for same refill in another book place...........I went back to my 2016 book that came with trike and it says wet refill is 34 oz in 2 different book places... (38 oz. for Dry refill only) ...trike book also states "Do not overfill" as it may cause difficulty with locating Neutral and clutch slippage. ect.

...anyway, 34 oz. takes my refill level to appx 1/2 the distance between your green factory line and your personal red line level on your diagram. (34 0z. level stops just at the clutch plate)

.......so, I guess it doesn't matter if the clutch pads are partially covered with the refill?

....and exactly what is the compensator you refer to and where is it located? (Yes, I know its a dumb question but I'm new to motorcycles....still learning):xzqxz:

Thanks!

Looking at the 2014 Touring Manual (I have a 2014) it say 38 oz (1.12L) wet.

Agree .... look at the manual for your year trike. Maybe the new "skinny primary" is different from the non-skinny on my 2014.

Lift kit changes angle of frame .... so it would make sense that slightly less oil is on the clutch basket.

This is a compensator .... and lack of lubrication leads to problems.



I TOTALLY AGREE that you need to refer to the manual for your year trike to not make mistakes.

All good here!

Bob orag:

 

[vito]

Lift kit changes angle of frame .... so it would make sense that slightly less oil is on the clutch basket.

This is a compensator .... and lack of lubrication leads to problems.

View attachment 50379

Bob orag:

Note how the compensator works to reduce drivetrain shocks caused by the jerk on the seat. The spokes try to climb the cam (against the spring) when the wheels slip then grab or when the jerk jerks the throttle on/off. Only a slight film of oil is needed and then not in normal driving and the chain carries up more than enough. I never paid any attention to the quantity specified in the manual but rather filled the case until the chain was just submerged where it passes under the clutch. The first time I ever heard of a compensator wearing was right here. Naturally YMMV. :qpnmt:

 

[Jack Klarich]

Note how the compensator works to reduce drivetrain shocks caused by the jerk on the seat. The spokes try to climb the cam (against the spring) when the wheels slip then grab or when the jerk jerks the throttle on/off. Only a slight film of oil is needed and then not in normal driving and the chain carries up more than enough. I never paid any attention to the quantity specified in the manual but rather filled the case until the chain was just submerged where it passes under the clutch. The first time I ever heard of a compensator wearing was right here. Naturally YMMV. :qpnmt:

The older (preTwin Cam) comp sprockets were stout design with a heavy spring and deep cut lead in ramps

These worked good for many years, and never failed

I guess the MOCO decided to out smart it self and have 100s if not 10000s of failures with the early 2 comp sprockets designs

Good thing for all on ALL the new bikes they have the current and best comp sprocket with a retro kit including a bigger alternator kit for older twin cams

 

[Rooster57]

I cannot believe how much I am learning with all of ya'lls responses!!!!!!

Thank you so much!- REALLY!

....say, I have some other questions so I'm gonna start another thread or two as well!:wave4:

 

[HDB0B]

I cannot believe how much I am learning with all of ya'lls responses!!!!!!

Thank you so much!- REALLY!

....say, I have some other questions so I'm gonna start another thread or two as well!:wave4:

GREAT ATTITUDE .... We all can learn a thing or two.

FWIW ... Skinny Primary explanation > and the wet fill oil quantity I am pretty sure is right for those years listed.