Need Tire Expert

[earlyriser4444]

O.K., how about some advice! I have a 2005 Goldwing with a 2010 MotorTrike kit. Sitting in the seat, the RIGHT side of my front tire is cupping badly. Pressure is kept at 41 lbs. Tire has about 10K on it.
What is causing the cupping???

 

[SMSgt]

Is it balanced?
Most folks on the site are not balanced and we are all cupping too.:laugh::laugh::laugh:
I'm sure about 100 "experts" will chime in here.
Good luck

 

[Solidbob]

Traxxion Solved it!!

I finally changed after many cupped tires to the AK20 Cartridges and that corrected everything. This is the Traxxion explanation not mine:

It's true the Honda Gold Wing is the most sophisticated motorcycle ever created in history. I am sure every Wing owner is baffled as to why their suspension works so poorly. If you are tired of the bouncing, wallowing, bottoming, chattering, wobbling of your stock forks, then TRAXXION DYNAMICS has the CURE!!!
Many people ask, "Why are my stock forks so bad?"
Your stock Showa forks have a "damper rod" in one side and an extremely low quality cartridge in the other side to control the movement of the wheel. The damper rod side is basically useless. This style of fork is used for cheap production parts. Trying to compare a damper rod fork to a proper cartridge fork is like trying to compare a carburetor to fuel injection. There simply is no comparison. The damper rod fork is the cheapest, poorest performing system of damping, and has been around the motorcycle business for so long nobody seems to be able to remember.

The "cartridge fork" came along about 20 years ago in sport bikes, and since has been highly refined. Unfortunately for Wing owners, none of that refinement has made it into the cartridge on the ONE side of your bike!
The next problem is your stock fork springs. The stock springs are so weak and wimpy that they can't even hold the bike up; never mind that they are completely unable to hold you up when you get on it, or take a passenger along. Just pick your bike up off the side stand sometime and watch it collapse before you even get on!.

The result is a fork that bottoms over large bumps, wallows in high speed turns, dives dramatically when you pull the brake, cups and tears up your tires, and leaves you generally feeling uncomfortable and lacking confidence in the feel of your bike.

Complete dissertations have been written by Gold Wing tuners and enthusiasts on the internet on the subject of wobbling Gold Wings and what to do to fix them. At best, the solutions offered are "work arounds" to the real problem. "Overtighten your steering bearings" seems to be the best known cure to date.

Gold Wings wobble because of bad front suspension. That's it. No rocket science. No expert required. Just fix the ill-performing stock fork, and your problem will be solved.

http://www.traxxion.com/hondagoldwing.aspx JUST FYI, generally balance is NOT the problem...

 

[Gold Rush]

O.K., how about some advice! I have a 2005 Goldwing with a 2010 MotorTrike kit. Sitting in the seat, the RIGHT side of my front tire is cupping badly. Pressure is kept at 41 lbs. Tire has about 10K on it.
What is causing the cupping???

While I agree the probable cause for cupping is the front end of your bike, I don't necessarily believe you have to spend lots of money with Traxxion to cure your ills. You didn't mention how many miles the '05 has on it or if the forks had ever been rebuilt. These are important bits of information.

My '06 had 73K on it when I converted. That is past the usual mileage where the forks are just flat worn out. When I installed my rake kit I also replaced all seals, bushings, and sliders in the forks. I also installed a set of heavy duty progressive springs (which was a mistake). Tire cupping was not an issue until the forks started wearing out again somewhere around 25K later. Another set of fresh seals, bushing, and sliders fixed that. My current BT45 is coming up on that 10K mark and looks great.

I'm not saying Traxxion is not a good product. From all I've heard they are. I don't think they are trike proven as yet. Longevity is my concern. Since my experience tells me the forks are going to need a rebuild at the 25K mark I can't help but believe Traxxion's cartridge will also ware out quicker then on the two wheel installation. Pretty costly replacement I expect.

In a nut shell I think there are three things we need to do for the GL1800 front end. First get the steering head bearing replaced with a tapered bearing. If you install a rake kit it will most likely come with these. Second thing is to totally rebuild the forks complete with replacing the original springs with a brand new set of OEM springs. The final thing I'd do is more suggestion but I do believe it would reduce cupping and increase handling. Install a rake kit. Even if you don't think you need help getting around the corners you will be reducing stress on the bike and that is not a bad thing.

Well, there you have it folks. Hope my rambling didn't bore you. Also hope it helps some. :xszpv: :xszpv:

 

[Veritas44]

Bob,
How Many Miles since you Upgraded to Traxxion?
What is the total (parts & labor) Cost of the Traxxion Upgrade ?
What is the longevity ?
What is Cost of Rebuild using OEM Parts & Setup?
Time to Failure of that is reported to be 20-25k miles.

OEM setup being Woefully inadequate & problematic goes without saying and is far beyond a Proven Fact. Comes down to what is most Cost & Time Effective as well as makes the most Sense-the Cure or the Band-aid every 20-25k miles.
Also have to factor in inconvenience and headache of applying the Band-aid every so many miles as opposed to a "One & Done".
Then, it stands to reason that if the OEM is "Shot" and completely worn out at the 20-25k miles, it obviously is beginning to fail earlier than that resulting in poor performance, handling, and adverse effects on other components (Tire, Bearings, Seals, etc.) beginning much sooner. It follows that the aggravation and additional Cost to address and correct those must be considered into the total Cost comparison and headaches as well. To me, much rather actually Fix/Correct the Issue and Prevent the nasty side-effects right out of the gate and be done with it. That goes for any Issue.
Treating the Effects as opposed to the Cause is never a Real Answer/Solution. True especially when you "fix" the Effects with what is known to be the inevitable Cause itself. But, maybe that's just me.

ALL Things considered,,,, addressing the inevitable Issue by treating it with the same Parts & Setup over and over again & again just seems a bit ,,,,,,,

 

[Gold Rush]

Bob,
What is the total (parts & labor) Cost of the Traxxion Upgrade ?
What is the longevity ?
What is Cost of Rebuild using OEM Parts & Setup?
Time to Failure of that is reported to be 20-25k miles.

OEM setup being Woefully inadequate & problematic goes without saying and is far beyond a Proven Fact. Comes down to what is most Cost & Time Effective as well as makes the most Sense-the Cure or the Band-aid every 20-25k miles.
Also have to factor in inconvenience and headache of applying the Band-aid every so many miles as opposed to a "One & Done".
Then, it stands to reason that if the OEM is "Shot" and completely worn out at the 20-25k miles, it obviously is beginning to fail earlier than that resulting in poor performance, handling, and adverse effects on other components (Tire, Bearings, Seals, etc.) beginning much sooner. It follows that the aggravation and additional Cost to address and correct those must be considered into the total Cost comparison and headaches as well. To me, much rather actually Fix/Correct the Issue and Prevent the nasty side-effects right out of the gate and be done with it. That goes for any Issue.
Treating the Effects as opposed to the Cause is never a Real Answer/Solution. True especially when you "fix" the Effects with what is known to be the inevitable Cause itself. But, maybe that's just me.

ALL Things considered,,,, addressing the inevitable Issue by treating it with the same Parts & Setup over and over again & again just seems a bit ,,,,,,,

Point Taken.... And I can't really argue the facts. But until we know the real answers to your questions all of us are just expressing our beliefs. As I said earlier - Traxxion used on trikes is an unproven quantity. A year of two from now I may very well change my thinking but for now I'll stay OEM and spend a couple hours every several months rebuilding with HONDA parts.

 

[Pegasus1300]

Ordinarily I would say that you are riding on very steeply crowned roads,but you said it was a RIGHT side only cupping. Is it possible that your forks are tilted to the left or that your trike is not level when sitting on a flat surface? You have some sort of suspension problem going on here but I think we need more information from you as mileage on front end,last rebuild,if any ,rake kit rear suspension type and setting maybe a picture of your trike on a level surface from the front and from the rear. Have you jacked your trike up enough to get the front end off the ground a little and checked for play in the steering head bearings (grab the front wheel and try to move it fore and aft. If it moves you have play either in the steering head of the fork or both)? What have you done to try to correct the problem?

 

[tfdeputydawg]

I would debate the statement the OEM suspension is inadequate!!!
A couple pieces of info:
1. When searching for my conversion, had a conversation w/a local installer about it seeming like everybody is touting Progressive springs. His response was when he first started his business he told everyone they needed to include Progressive springs. Shortly, 4 of his first six customer were back asking for the OEM springs to be put back in as the ride was extremely stiff. I test rode a trike w/Progressive and with the OEM springs. I opted to leave the OEM springs in and have been happy w/the ride.
2. I do agree the OEM springs are in need of replacement somewhere around 25+K miles. Replaced mine @ 35K with new OEM's that were free from a trike installer that had installed after market springs for a customer!
3. One and done IMHO, is an incorrect statement! Some suspension "parts" may out last others but, all will wear out and need replaced.
Now, here's a very informative article on tire wear:
http://www.rattlebars.com/tirewear/index.html

 

[Veritas44]

I would debate the statement the OEM suspension is inadequate!!!

Of Course YOU would... and DO
Come to expect nothing Less, & definitely Nothing More :xzqxz:

I stand by my Statements and Facts.
Stand behind & Bet on Bob's corroborating Statements, Facts, and Experience even more ThumbUp

Also,,,
OP has a Trike so
If not mistaken,,, the Article You cited in above Post is all about 2-Wheelers NOT Trikes.
Although it is a Great Article concerning 2-Wheelers, TOTALLY different and NO accurate correlation can be made regarding front Tire wear on a Trike.
Surely you don't wish to Debate that or the Relevance. :Shrug:

P.s. I didn't say "Inadequate",,, I said "WOEFULLY Inadequate".
and,,,, They ARE. As originally intended (2-Wheeler) and even More So when Triked.

 

[Solidbob]

Dawg you debate everything...

Veritas44: I have 1200.00 invested in the Front End (removed the forks, sent to Traxxion, they rebuilt I re-installed) , no expected mileage stated as every installation and rider is different (have 40K since installed, 6K as a bike, balance as a trike), Rebuild thru Honda (both sides)1st time was warranty at 9K miles ($310.00 dealer) + a New Tire, do it again - no way - I bought this to ride not to work on, I have Harley's for that..

Dawg don't believe everything you read until you put it into practice. First hand knowledge, not speculation....That's what we need FYI

Yes Traxxion is expensive, what's your time worth doing this every 10- 20K , I elected to only do it once for my money... and have a much better trike for doing it, I also use a fork brace ad have since new.

 

[Veritas44]

Thanks Bob ThumbUp
That's "Solid" Intel & Info you can Trust and Bank on right there Folks

 

[earlyriser4444]

Ordinarily I would say that you are riding on very steeply crowned roads,but you said it was a RIGHT side only cupping. Is it possible that your forks are tilted to the left or that your trike is not level when sitting on a flat surface? You have some sort of suspension problem going on here but I think we need more information from you as mileage on front end,last rebuild,if any ,rake kit rear suspension type and setting maybe a picture of your trike on a level surface from the front and from the rear. Have you jacked your trike up enough to get the front end off the ground a little and checked for play in the steering head bearings (grab the front wheel and try to move it fore and aft. If it moves you have play either in the steering head of the fork or both)? What have you done to try to correct the problem?

Have 77,200 on the Trike. New front BT45 at 64,200 miles. New fork seals, bushings and valves checked at 68,800. No steering head play that I can detect. Maybe should have put in new fork springs at the time the seal leak was fixed? Have a MotorTrike Rake kit installed when the GL was converted to the Trike.

 

[Gold Rush]

Thanks for the numbers Bob. I thought I remembered Traxxion costing about that much.

You may not want to wrench on your Wing but I actually enjoy it. The cost you've invested would fully rebuild OEM many times but I'm still open to the Traxxion if say another 50K down the road you are still enamorred with your cartridges. I'm sure this topic will come up again so please post your experience when it does.

I will probably go through this upcoming year with what I have then see what's what.

Thanks again for your input....:xszpv::xszpv:

 

[cavie]

anybody care to speculate where the VTX fist into all this??

 

[Solidbob]

Thanks for the numbers Bob. I thought I remembered Traxxion costing about that much.

You may not want to wrench on your Wing but I actually enjoy it. The cost you've invested would fully rebuild OEM many times but I'm still open to the Traxxion if say another 50K down the road you are still enamorred with your cartridges. I'm sure this topic will come up again so please post your experience when it does.

I will probably go through this upcoming year with what I have then see what's what.

Thanks again for your input....:xszpv::xszpv:

Gold Rush
Didn't say I didn't like to work on the wing, been doing that all day today getting it ready for riding season as we live in Texas it comes soon and have a few thing to change and some to tweek ( not twerk) What a day from what we've had.
I just really wanted the much improved ride Traxxion gives, it's just hard to describe without experiencing it first hand. It was such an improvement thought about a track day test, but that passed. The spouse really noticed the difference... I have a K&L lift so trike work is just fun / bad back just wasn't going to crawl around anymore.. ThumbUp

 

[jtilmon]

Bob, I have a question regarding the Traxxion system - How is the ride compared to Progressive springs?
I have progressive and have fork brace that we installed abt 2000 miles back and I do feel the road more than with original springs, but I'm not willing to go back.

thanks for your reply
John

 

[Solidbob]

Bob, I have a question regarding the Traxxion system - How is the ride compared to Progressive springs?
I have progressive and have fork brace that we installed abt 2000 miles back and I do feel the road more than with original springs, but I'm not willing to go back.

thanks for your reply
John

John,
I have not ridden a Progressive sprung trike, but what I have read most say the ride is very hard (rough). The Traxxion is setup by Trike or Bike weight along with driver & passenger weight for the spring rate factor and then by cartridge oil weight for riding style. My Traxxion trike is firm but not stiff or rough, I do not feel every bump as most state of progressive. My trike sets up when parked and doesn't sag and only drops about 3/4" when getting on the trike and comes back up on exit of the trike, remember I now have 2 full cartridges fully working. Going over bumps or dips is now never felt unless they are bad ones, then still very controlled.
Do you know the weight of the fork oil used when you did the Progressive springs? You might try a lighter weight fork oil which will allow your forks to soak smaller road vibration up as the forks work faster but don't get to light or you'll get to much action. I'm not an expert but can be used as a bad example per my spouse!!

 

[JaysGone]

I have had cupping issues on my 2 wheeler.
It was in an accident and the lower fork may be bent a smidge.
Not enough to even measure.
But Ive gone through 2 front tires at approximately 10K each.
2 different bike shops have looked into this and both say its from the crowned roads down here.
Due to heavy rain content they claim, and you can see the crowning riding down the major roads here.
The main roads are indeed heavily crowned.
With the trike so far Ive put 10K on it since purchasing it and no issues what so ever.
So Im more inclined to believe its the lower tree on the 2 wheeler out of whack a few millimeters or so in my case.

If its the left side wearing out in your case.
Id be leaning toward the road crown being the culprit. Most bikes have to make long leaning left turns here. Right turns are less of an issue.

 

[Veritas44]

O.K., how about some advice! I have a 2005 Goldwing with a 2010 MotorTrike kit. Sitting in the seat, the RIGHT side of my front tire is cupping badly. Pressure is kept at 41 lbs. Tire has about 10K on it.
What is causing the cupping???

ThumbUp

 

[bigred06]

OK Earlyriser, I had the same problem with my 02 trike with Motor Trike kit installed. It ate up front tires (on the right side of tread) in 5000 miles. I finally traded it off for a 06 with Champion kit. Come to find out later, I was fighting with the kit since installed and installer adjusted and adjusted on the kit. He took no measurements doing the adjustments. He had the adjustments so screwed up that it should have been taken clear off and started over. It was not installed properly from the get-go. That may be your problem, but I hope not. Have a good Motor Trike installer check all your heim joints for correct adjustments. bigred06

 

[nucseal]

Since this is about front forks. I have search the threads and can't find any info on the following question.

When do you know when to replace the front forks springs and seals? Are you going strictly going by mileage (every 25,000 miles) or when you start having seal leakage? I have a 2006 GL Hannigan with 30,000 miles. I don't I have any issues at present, that I am aware of.

Thanks for the info
Nuc

 

[Gold Rush]

Since this is about front forks. I have search the threads and can't find any info on the following question.

When do you know when to replace the front forks springs and seals? Are you going strictly going by mileage (every 25,000 miles) or when you start having seal leakage? I have a 2006 GAL Hannigan with 30,000 miles. I don't I have any issues at present, that I am aware of.

Thanks for the info
NYC

This is sort of tongue in cheek but the old saying "If It Ain't Broke - Don't Fix It" applies... Worn bushings and slides will accelerate the ware on the seal itself but they will be really shot by the time you see leakage. For many riders that is at least OK although maybe not ideal.

I discovered and started posting that 25 K mark as a sort of milestone for considering rebuild quite by accident. I just happen to be doing some other maintenance and chose to look at fork condition just out of curiosity. What I found was the bushings and sliders were more worn after 25K as a trike then they were after 75K as a two wheeler.

More aggressive riders will notice changes in handling before other riders would and again for most that's OK. Some folks that are very mild riders might even go 35 or 40 K between fork rebuilds. It's sort of like tires and oil -- individual results will vary. I wish I had a more definitive answer but unfortunately I don't think there is one. :xszpv: :xszpv:

 

[nucseal]

This is sort of tongue in cheek but the old saying "If It Ain't Broke - Don't Fix It" applies... Worn bushings and slides will accelerate the ware on the seal itself but they will be really shot by the time you see leakage. For many riders that is at least OK although maybe not ideal.

I discovered and started posting that 25 K mark as a sort of milestone for considering rebuild quite by accident. I just happen to be doing some other maintenance and chose to look at fork condition just out of curiosity. What I found was the bushings and sliders were more worn after 25K as a trike then they were after 75K as a two wheeler.

More aggressive riders will notice changes in handling before other riders would and again for most that's OK. Some folks that are very mild riders might even go 35 or 40 K between fork rebuilds. It's sort of like tires and oil -- individual results will vary. I wish I had a more definitive answer but unfortunately I don't think there is one. :xszpv: :xszpv:

Thanks.
Nuc