Adjusting my new adjustable lifters

[Dr. Joe]

I reinstalled the stock pushrods when I did my cam swap (TTS-100 + Gaterman GP1021 lifters) but went with adjustable pushrods after having to get back into the cam area again to deal with my oil pump failure.

I adjusted the pushrods according to the instructions... piston at TDC, adjust them up till they make contact with the lifter with no up & down movement, then 3 complete turns. Everything's quiet for about 15 minutes on the road then I get a slight lifter chatter from one of the front lifters, the exhaust I think, around 2,700 rpm to about 3,200 rpm. The slight chatter comes and goes, but sometimes noisier than others times. Never excessive like something is way out of whack.

I adjusted them again but with the same results. I didn't have this noise with the stock cams & lifters so I'm assuming it has to do with the lifter adjustment?

How precise are the adjustment recommendations? Is it possible that the noisy one just needs maybe 3 1/2 turns?

 

[Gorilla]

I think I would rather have a little noise then a burnt valve. So be careful.

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I reinstalled the stock pushrods when I did my cam swap (TTS-100 + Gaterman GP1021 lifters) but went with adjustable pushrods after having to get back into the cam area again to deal with my oil pump failure.

I adjusted the pushrods according to the instructions... piston at TDC, adjust them up till they make contact with the lifter with no up & down movement, then 3 complete turns. Everything's quiet for about 15 minutes on the road then I get a slight lifter chatter from one of the front lifters, the exhaust I think, around 2,700 rpm to about 3,200 rpm. The slight chatter comes and goes, but sometimes noisier than others times. Never excessive like something is way out of whack.

I adjusted them again but with the same results. I didn't have this noise with the stock cams & lifters so I'm assuming it has to do with the lifter adjustment?

How precise are the adjustment recommendations? Is it possible that the noisy one just needs maybe 3 1/2 turns?

2 things possible:

1) I would advise yo to pull the exhaust pushrods and look at the upper part of the pushrod stem for a wear ring. It would be down from the tip about 1 1/2". If its there, your noise is the pushrod rubbing the inner pushrod tube. That can be cleaned up by using a dremel to open the tube bore or use a drill bit just slightly bigger than the inner diameter of the tube.

2) If that isnt the issue than you can go the 1/2 turn on the exhaust front and rear and that should eliminate the valve train noise.

 

[Dr. Joe]

2 things possible:

1) I would advise yo to pull the exhaust pushrods and look at the upper part of the pushrod stem for a wear ring. It would be down from the tip about 1 1/2". If its there, your noise is the pushrod rubbing the inner pushrod tube. That can be cleaned up by using a dremel to open the tube bore or use a drill bit just slightly bigger than the inner diameter of the tube.

2) If that isnt the issue than you can go the 1/2 turn on the exhaust front and rear and that should eliminate the valve train noise.

Some good ideas there.
(1) It never occurred to me that a pushrod could be rubbing on the inner tube. Is this something that can happen with adjustable pushrods?

(2) I figured that there would be enough fluid in the lifters to handle a bit of "tweaking." The amount of "rattle" coming from the lifter, and the fact that it's fine when cold, and has intermittent, and not steady, noise when hot, leads me to believe that it's adjustment is real close.... but just needs another half turn.

(3) As per Gorilla's caution... If 1 & 2 don't work than I'm going to take the trike to the local shop where I purchased the lifters and pushrods and have them adjust them as they are quite proud of the parts they sell as to their fit & function, and, as a bonus, they have a trike lift!

Thanks guys!

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Some good ideas there.
(1) It never occurred to me that a pushrod could be rubbing on the inner tube. Is this something that can happen with adjustable pushrods?
Yes! Larger diameter pushrods and the possibility of some flexing can be attributed to it rubbing the inner tube wall.

(2) I figured that there would be enough fluid in the lifters to handle a bit of "tweaking." The amount of "rattle" coming from the lifter, and the fact that it's fine when cold, and has intermittent, and not steady, noise when hot, leads me to believe that it's adjustment is real close.... but just needs another half turn.
1/2 turn will not hurt anything. Just make sure you have the piston @ TDC and the pushrod should spin freely in your fingers before adjusting

(3) As per Gorilla's caution... If 1 & 2 don't work than I'm going to take the trike to the local shop where I purchased the lifters and pushrods and have them adjust them as they are quite proud of the parts they sell as to their fit & function, and, as a bonus, they have a trike lift!
Best way to learn is to do it yourself... just sayin!!
Thanks guys!

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PS: I have my lifters on the exhaust side set @ 4 turns

 

[HDB0B]

I'm just wondering if you installed the rocker lockers when you did your mods?

http://www.dkcustomproducts.com/Rocker-Lockers-For-Harley-Davidson-Twin-Cam-Motors-DK-RL-TC.htm

Bob

 

[Dr. Joe]

I'm just wondering if you installed the rocker lockers when you did your mods?

http://www.dkcustomproducts.com/Rocker-Lockers-For-Harley-Davidson-Twin-Cam-Motors-DK-RL-TC.htm

Bob

Well that's pretty cool! Any day is complete if you learn something and I just learned something! Thanks for the link. Regardless of whether or not the rocker shafts is the main issue, with over 50,000 miles on the engine I can see this will be a worthwhile investment, and at $15.95 it's a small investment in time.

Thanks again!

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ThumbUpThumbUp

PS: I have my lifters on the exhaust side set @ 4 turns

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dr. Joe]

ThumbUpThumbUp

PS: I have my lifters on the exhaust side set @ 4 turns

Just wondering..... why the exhaust lifters would be the noisy ones? Is it because of the larger angle of the pushrods to the lifters? ...And would this larger angle to the lifter make the lifter less efficient in being able to handle the load?

Also, would the larger angle of the pushrods be the reason why they might be inclined to rub the inner pushrod tube?

 

[geezerglide11441]

I reinstalled the stock pushrods when I did my cam swap (TTS-100 + Gaterman GP1021 lifters) but went with adjustable pushrods after having to get back into the cam area again to deal with my oil pump failure. I adjusted the pushrods according to the instructions... piston at TDC, adjust them up till they make contact with the lifter with no up & down movement, then 3 complete turns. Everything's quiet for about 15 minutes on the road then I get a slight lifter chatter from one of the front lifters, the exhaust I think, around 2,700 rpm to about 3,200 rpm. The slight chatter comes and goes, but sometimes noisier than others times. Never excessive like something is way out of whack. I adjusted them again but with the same results. I didn't have this noise with the stock cams & lifters so I'm assuming it has to do with the lifter adjustment? How precise are the adjustment recommendations? Is it possible that the noisy one just needs maybe 3 1/2 turns?

Dr. Joe, am not saying the lifters are/could be the problem, but I and two other riding buddies went from the SE lifter to the Gaterman's and all three of us have had lifter failure - i.e. roller cam apart on my case and trashed the 120r motor I had installed. The repair cost for all the damage done was close to $6,000. I changed from the OEM SE lifters because I was advised the Gaterman's were "the cat's meow" and much better than the SE lifters - my bad!! The vendor that sold us the Gaterman's (when I had a chance to speak to him) advised that he had two other customers that experienced lifter failure and he discontinued carrying/selling the Gaterman's and went to the Delphi lifters.

However it did give me the opportunity to choose my re-build components (if that is a plus??). I changed cams, lifters, went with roller rockers, brass valve guides, and Smith Push Rods. Much more street friendly build than the OEM 120r crate motor.

In any event, please take this as a Heads Up only!!

Roger

 

[HDB0B]

Mr. Wizard & I did some talking a long while ago and he recommended these Black Ops lifters.

http://www.head-quarters.com/html/lifters.html

Bob

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Just wondering..... why the exhaust lifters would be the noisy ones? Is it because of the larger angle of the pushrods to the lifters? YES

And would this larger angle to the lifter make the lifter less efficient in being able to handle the load?No. The length is just longer due to the angle of the angle of the engine cylinders

Also, would the larger angle of the pushrods be the reason why they might be inclined to rub the inner pushrod tube?

Most adjustable pushrods are a larger diameter to keep the rigid strength of the pushrod.


.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Dr. Joe, am not saying the lifters are/could be the problem, but I and two other riding buddies went from the SE lifter to the Gaterman's and all three of us have had lifter failure - i.e. roller cam apart on my case and trashed the 120r motor I had installed. The repair cost for all the damage done was close to $6,000. I changed from the OEM SE lifters because I was advised the Gaterman's were "the cat's meow" and much better than the SE lifters - my bad!! The vendor that sold us the Gaterman's (when I had a chance to speak to him) advised that he had two other customers that experienced lifter failure and he discontinued carrying/selling the Gaterman's and went to the Delphi lifters.

However it did give me the opportunity to choose my re-build components (if that is a plus??). I changed cams, lifters, went with roller rockers, brass valve guides, and Smith Push Rods. Much more street friendly build than the OEM 120r crate motor.

In any event, please take this as a Heads Up only!!

Roger

Thanks for the heads up on the lifters. What model did you use, the 1023 Performance or the 1021 Replacement? How long ago did this happen? Did you all have the same mechanic? What kind of failure did the other two experience?

Checking their website it says their lifters are warrantied against materials and workmanship defects. Did you report this to Gaterman and, if so, what was their response? I'm interested to see what kind of customer service they have.

Having been tinkering on car motors and Harley's for over 40 years (I went to trade school in the 70's to be a mechanic but switched to auto painting & welding once I discovered what mechanics were being paid) I know that "stuff" happens whenever you have masses of metal whirling around at high temperatures with small explosions being detonated on a regular basis. Still, it's interesting that three people experienced a similar outcome with the same part.

I went with Gaterman because my local Harley repair shop said they have been using them exclusively for over 6 years with no reported problems. He has a very reputable shop here in Daytona where good news travels fast and bad news travels at the speed of light and I have heard nothing but good reports on this shop.

Thanks for the info. I'll relay this all to the shop mechanic and see what the response is.

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Most adjustable pushrods are a larger diameter to keep the rigid strength of the pushrod.


.

If the pushrod is scuffing the inner pushrod tube, are the scuff marks on the pushrod visible by just putting the piston at TDC and then looking at it by opening the tube, or does the pushrod have to be removed?

 

[geezerglide11441]

Thanks for the heads up on the lifters. What model did you use, the 1023 Performance or the 1021 Replacement? How long ago did this happen? Did you all have the same mechanic? What kind of failure did the other two experience?

Checking their website it says their lifters are warrantied against materials and workmanship defects. Did you report this to Gaterman and, if so, what was their response? I'm interested to see what kind of customer service they have.

Having been tinkering on car motors and Harley's for over 40 years (I went to trade school in the 70's to be a mechanic but switched to auto painting & welding once I discovered what mechanics were being paid) I know that "stuff" happens whenever you have masses of metal whirling around at high temperatures with small explosions being detonated on a regular basis. Still, it's interesting that three people experienced a similar outcome with the same part.

I went with Gaterman because my local Harley repair shop said they have been using them exclusively for over 6 years with no reported problems. He has a very reputable shop here in Daytona where good news travels fast and bad news travels at the speed of light and I have heard nothing but good reports on this shop.

Thanks for the info. I'll relay this all to the shop mechanic and see what the response is.

- - - Updated - - -


If the pushrod is scuffing the inner pushrod tube, are the scuff marks on the pushrod visible by just putting the piston at TDC and then looking at it by opening the tube, or does the pushrod have to be removed?

Hi Dr. Joe, I do not remember which product number I purchased and the only common thread between the three was that we all purchased the lifters from the same vendor. And I don't know what the circumstances were for the ones the vendor advise that he was aware of as well. This vendor is a very reputable high performance guy that does custom head work and overall engine building. He is located in Washington State about 300 miles from me and his name is Don Dorfman. My personal opinion with my lifter failure was (at least in part) the valve spring tension that they put in the SE 120r crate motor, that is the reason I switched to the Beehive valve springs that was rated at .600 lift, and my T-Man 577's lift is .577. I had just returned from a trip to Cider City, Utah and had only been home about 1 week and two other riding buddies and I went on a ride and I was in cruise control at about 60 mph when the motor grenaded on me. This was about a little over a year ago, and I can't remember the actual date/time!!

I will not take a chance on Gaterman's again not matter who says they are good/great/awesome!!

Roger

 

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

If the pushrod is scuffing the inner pushrod tube, are the scuff marks on the pushrod visible by just putting the piston at TDC and then looking at it by opening the tube, or does the pushrod have to be removed?

To see the wear mark you will need to pull the pushrod

 

[Dr. Joe]

To see the wear mark you will need to pull the pushrod

10-4. Will do that sometime today.

 

[Dr. Joe]

Hi Dr. Joe, I do not remember which product number I purchased and the only common thread between the three was that we all purchased the lifters from the same vendor. And I don't know what the circumstances were for the ones the vendor advise that he was aware of as well. This vendor is a very reputable high performance guy that does custom head work and overall engine building. He is located in Washington State about 300 miles from me and his name is Don Dorfman. My personal opinion with my lifter failure was (at least in part) the valve spring tension that they put in the SE 120r crate motor, that is the reason I switched to the Beehive valve springs that was rated at .600 lift, and my T-Man 577's lift is .577. I had just returned from a trip to Cider City, Utah and had only been home about 1 week and two other riding buddies and I went on a ride and I was in cruise control at about 60 mph when the motor grenaded on me. This was about a little over a year ago, and I can't remember the actual date/time!!

I will not take a chance on Gaterman's again not matter who says they are good/great/awesome!!

Roger

Did you ever contact Gaterman's? Would be curious as to their response.

 

[geezerglide11441]

Did you ever contact Gaterman's? Would be curious as to their response.

No, Dr. Joe as I was not interested in even speaking to them. I installed them in a High Performance motor with the SE 266E cams and like I said initially, I think the valve spring pressure was too great for the valve train system with the Gaterman's. I take the blame (since I had to pay for the complete rebuild) for replacing the SE lifters when they had not caused me any problems when I replaced them. HD designed/built the motor with all the High Performance components and I had read where some others with the 120r crate motor had experienced problems with the lifters so I did a search and followed other peoples recommendations for the Gaterman's. In hind site, I could have went with the S&S lifters or Black Opps or ??, but chose the Gaterman's and paid a heavy price for my paranoia!!! I am currently running the Delphi lifters that my HD Tech friend suggested and so far am happy. I have about 6,500 miles on the completely re-built motor and am very happy with all the changes I made. Take care, and good luck with the Gaterman's!! Roger

 

[Dr. Joe]

To see the wear mark you will need to pull the pushrod

Removed the pushrod and no scuff marks.

When I readjusted the exhaust pushrods I gave them just a conservative extra 1/2 turn and the "clatter" was appreciably less! Will try a whole turn and see what happens but that's as far as I will take it.

My new rocker shaft inserts arrived yesterday so that will be the next step, even if the extra turn reduces the clatter a bit more. Get it done now while I'm in the mood. I went with the inserts from ROCKOUT https://www.rockout.biz . Only $15 & free shipping. They arrived in only 2 days!

 

[Gorilla]

As I stated before just be careful. If you go to far you will get rid of the clatter but the valve will be slightly open. I would go no further then what others have suggested. Good luck sounds like you got the situation in hand.

 

[Dr. Joe]

As I stated before just be careful. If you go to far you will get rid of the clatter but the valve will be slightly open. I would go no further then what others have suggested. Good luck sounds like you got the situation in hand.

10-4 on being careful. That's why I just went with 1/2 turn to begin with. Taking it out today to check it out before I do the rocker inserts to see if the one extra turn makes any difference. Will report on both the one turn and the rocker inserts once completed.

 

[Dr. Joe]

To see the wear mark you will need to pull the pushrod

Just out of curiosity.... why would turning down the adjustable pushrods an extra turn have any affect at all on the lifter noise? Is there any science behind this? After all, isn't taking up the slack what the hydraulics are supposed to do?

 

[UltraNutZ]

I reinstalled the stock pushrods when I did my cam swap (TTS-100 + Gaterman GP1021 lifters) but went with adjustable pushrods after having to get back into the cam area again to deal with my oil pump failure.

I adjusted the pushrods according to the instructions... piston at TDC, adjust them up till they make contact with the lifter with no up & down movement, then 3 complete turns. Everything's quiet for about 15 minutes on the road then I get a slight lifter chatter from one of the front lifters, the exhaust I think, around 2,700 rpm to about 3,200 rpm. The slight chatter comes and goes, but sometimes noisier than others times. Never excessive like something is way out of whack.

I adjusted them again but with the same results. I didn't have this noise with the stock cams & lifters so I'm assuming it has to do with the lifter adjustment?

How precise are the adjustment recommendations? Is it possible that the noisy one just needs maybe 3 1/2 turns?

you don't say what brand or model pushrods... does make a difference!