Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Feb 24, 2011
82
3
Eclectic, AL
Name
Larry
Just got this in a Email.


Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Action Suit Over Air-Cooled Engine Heat Advances
by Jason Giacchino

There is an ever-increasing movement of folks who feel Harley-Davidson has taken the air-cooled engine about as far as it can go. It seems like, without fail, anticipation rises among industry insiders and consumers alike that H-D is finally going to deliver upon rumors of making the move to liquid cooling. Of course back in 2001 when the V-Rod was first announced, it almost appeared as though the air-cooled days were numbered, but in the decade that's followed, H-D has silenced its skeptics by proving the air-cooled Evolution engine and liquid-cooled Revolution design can share a product line in harmony.

Well, believe it or not, there are more than just technology hounds taking a stand against H-D's reluctance to adopt modern liquid cooling. A federal judge ruled that a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson, claiming Harley engines run so hot that they pose a constant danger of burning their operators/passengers, is going forward.

The sympathetic arbitrator sided with four bikers claiming their Harley-Davidson motorcycles were defective in design.

The complaint goes on to state that since 1999, Twin Cam engines between 88 and 110 cubic inches are capable of producing excess heat - enough in fact to cause clothing to catch fire in normal operating conditions.

The suit also alleges that the motors burn hot enough to pose a danger of burn injury to both riders and passengers. As if all of these concerns for personal safety aren't valid enough, the suit even contains evidence that such high operating temperatures causes premature engine wear and transmission failures in certain models.

"The Motor Company" was hoping the Eastern District of California court would dismiss the suit under state law, but this latest word that the U.S. District Judge sided with the biker complainants is big news indeed.

Of course, the allegations of a few riders will unlikely sway the entire manufacturing process of Harley-Davidson, but there is legitimate concern that as the suit passes into higher courts, other sympathetic judges may determine that such high operating temperatures are in fact design defects and hence affect not only future engine production, but retroactively demand updates to existing H-Ds via mandatory recalls.

Further complicating matters, the plaintiffs are relying upon undisputed evidence of Harley marketing larger engines, which are unable to meet emission standards in many states (one of those being California).

On the flip side, those opposed to the idea of H-D facing legal action for simply doing what they've always done claim that higher operating temperatures on air-cooled motors are to be expected and fall under the jurisdiction of common sense.

Could this finally be the end of air-cooled engines?
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I've heard about this in other places. It will be interesting to see how far they get with this. If anybody has ever received a dime from the MOCO as a result of a class-action suit...please raise your hand.

Others have tried on such issues as the initial run of the twin-cam with the cam-bearing issues and chain tensioners and other stuff and I don't think anybody has gotten far.....yet.

Stuff like this will eventually mean the demise of the venerable old v-twin air-cooled pushrod motor. I think anybody with any mechanical sense has to realize they have taken the motor as far as they can. He!!....Victory can make an air/oil-cooled v-twin and Harley is going to have to learn how, or switch to some version of the V-Rod drive train.

BUT....as long as these forums are open for anybody to read and do research.....yet keep on shelling out the BIG $ for a rattling toaster-oven and then spend more $ to try and make it run, the MOCO will just keep on selling them. If you don't want to risk getting burned alive....don't buy the coffee at McDonald's. That law-suit didn't go anywhere either. The buying public will eventually have to solve this and over time they will.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I agree the writing is on the wall, sooner or later HD will have to make some changes. Before I made the changes to my 2010 I was getting 140 degree temps on the surface of my right pant leg when I checked with an IR temp gun. I know a guy who had a 2010 2 wheel Ultra who had his right ankle burnt while riding, he didn't come in contact with the exhaust it was the radiant heat that burned him.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

My tri glide overheated at 500 miles on it on a normal day and would not start for about an hour till it cooled down. I was pissed. They don't want to lose the Harley sound so they don't want to go to a liquid cooled motor. If they do what are the chances of a recall. Very slim.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

The complaint goes on to state that since 1999, Twin Cam engines between 88 and 110 cubic inches are capable of producing excess heat - enough in fact to cause clothing to catch fire in normal operating conditions.

Uhhhh, the flash point of paper is 451*, I sincerely doubt it gets that hot "in normal conditions" Several manufacturers (S & S, Patric Racing etc are making 120+" air cooled engines. I would think the rear exhaust header could be rerouted, better heat shielding, or relocating the catalytic converter could do the trick. Ever notice where the pegs are located on a Boss Hoss??? About 2 1/2 inches from the exhaust manifold on a 350 CID V8 engine.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Been riding Harley's since the mid 90's. Never got burned except when I did something stupid like touching the exhaust while checking the oil...ect. I for one hope Harley keeps making the air cooled v-twin. If I want something with a Radiator, I'll ride in a car!
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Changed my sig pic. I've been kicked off the Triglide. Got my Road King back though...:D
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

pcmikey here. I put fuelmoto ss headers, PCV and autotune, and Rush slipon 2.25" baffles on my 2010 tri glide ultra about 6-8 months ago. The low end torque is significantly improved, and the engine runs a lot cooler. Unlike the summer of 2010, I have not had the rear cylinder shut down this summer. My biggest gripe about the tri glide is the brakes. I had my 10000 mi service done 1000 miles early because of a warped front rotor. The dealer (Dothan Alabama) said that Harley would not honor the warranty---"normal wear and tear"). My next two-wheeler will be a Victory Vegas Jackpot. Harley has joined Calvin Klein, Chanel, and other over-priced products as merely a brand name. Quality is out the window.

PS I will keep my trike from now on. I have too much invested, and my wife of almost 50 years will ride it with me. It is sad to see an icon morph into a turd.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

pcmikey here. I put fuelmoto ss headers, PCV and autotune, and Rush slipon 2.25" baffles on my 2010 tri glide ultra about 6-8 months ago. The low end torque is significantly improved, and the engine runs a lot cooler. Unlike the summer of 2010, I have not had the rear cylinder shut down this summer. My biggest gripe about the tri glide is the brakes. I had my 10000 mi service done 1000 miles early because of a warped front rotor. The dealer (Dothan Alabama) said that Harley would not honor the warranty---"normal wear and tear"). My next two-wheeler will be a Victory Vegas Jackpot. Harley has joined Calvin Klein, Chanel, and other over-priced products as merely a brand name. Quality is out the window.

PS I will keep my trike from now on. I have too much invested, and my wife of almost 50 years will ride it with me. It is sad to see an icon morph into a turd.

I feel your pain, I plan on keeping both my HD's with no plans for buying a new one in the future. I can remember when I used to get excited about the new model roll out, now it comes an goes without much interest from me.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I wondered how long it would take for something to bite h-d , started riding h-d in '77 on a '62 pan up til about 2.5 yrs ago when I bought '06 gl mt (32 yrs) back in '82-84 suzuki came uo with the calacade (hope i spelled it right) a v-4 water cooled 65 degree cyl angle that sounded damn near as close to h-d as you could get , close enough h-d filed suit but i thought back then that h-d should be building like it or the hammer would fall.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

HDs and heat have been a given as long as I can remember (sometimes that's only 5 minutes, but usually it's longer). Most folks have heard about this, but I can attest to early HD heat. My first HD was a 1950 panhead that ran so hot when sitting still that on a dark night I could actually see the piston moving in the red hot rear cylinder. I know this has been passed around as a myth for years, but I can attest that it is true (at least one time for me).

Yea, I remember the burned leather boots, the shreded blue jeans from burning on the pipes, and I still have a bad knee from kick-starting the monsters.

Aah, memories - I wouldn't change a thing!
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I feel your pain, I plan on keeping both my HD's with no plans for buying a new one in the future. I can remember when I used to get excited about the new model roll out, now it comes an goes without much interest from me.

I hear you. When I get a new model brochure, I toss it with out reading it.

Mike

PS You have 3 generations riding? My son rides, and my grandson will probably start as soon as his mom lets him. I have a 2009 Vulcan 900 custom that I am saving for him. I am going to replace it with a Victory Vegas Jackpot next Spring.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

The key is dress appropriatly for riding. I've see folks with shorts and sandals trying to ride a bike. That's just plain stupid!
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

The lower fairings contribute a lot to engine heat due to restricted air flow. I remove mine for the summer months (20 minute job) and replace them in the late fall. Doesn't help in stop and go traffic but once you get rolling the bike cools down a lot faster.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

The lower fairings contribute a lot to engine heat due to restricted air flow. I remove mine for the summer months (20 minute job) and replace them in the late fall. Doesn't help in stop and go traffic but once you get rolling the bike cools down a lot faster.

I removed the doors on my lowers, it might have helped a little. I won't remove the lowers all together, I watched a friend pay for no lowers when we got caught in a hail storm while leaving Keystone SD. He had welts and a few places where it drew blood on his shins, my legs never felt it, just my chest because my shirt was open.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Hey #3......good thing he had his lowers off. Skin and wounds on the body will heal. If the fairings get skinned....that's a paint job!:D

If anybody wants a real eye-opener....go out to the garage one pitch-black night and crank your Harley. Turn-out all the lights and after she warms-up....open the throttle a bit and hold it. The stuff that gets red and glowing may scare you to death.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Like I said before, I'd like some of the stuff you guy's are smoking!!! Never been around anybody dumb enough to ride in a hail storm or run their Harley in the garage until it get's red hot....Geeesssuuss...:Wrong:
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I think #3 would probably "explain" to you that he did not plan to ride in a hailstorm. Obviously....one gets caught out in the weather in places where a garage is not available, unless you ride around with yours behind a motor home.

In my case, I often tune my bikes in my garage with a blower on them and if you turn-out the lights....the exhaust will run cherry red.

10...you have a manner about you that just simply pisses me off. #3 may not like being called dumb, but that's between you and him. I am sure that he will tell you they were not riding around looking for that elusive hailstorm just to ride in.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I think #3 would probably "explain" to you that he did not plan to ride in a hailstorm. Obviously....one gets caught out in the weather in places where a garage is not available, unless you ride around with yours behind a motor home.

In my case, I often tune my bikes in my garage with a blower on them and if you turn-out the lights....the exhaust will run cherry red.

10...you have a manner about you that just simply pisses me off. #3 may not like being called dumb, but that's between you and him. I am sure that he will tell you they were not riding around looking for that elusive hailstorm just to ride in.

Maybe the word dumb was a bit much...sorry! I've been riding since 1967. Got caught twice in a hailstorm. Once was close enough to get under a bridge. second time, stopped, got off the bike and covered myself as best I could with my rain jacket. Can't believe anybody rode in a Hailstorm. that's dangerous!

Put me on your ignore list 1550, I'll do the same!
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Maybe the word dumb was a bit much...sorry! I've been riding since 1967. Got caught twice in a hailstorm. Once was close enough to get under a bridge. second time, stopped, got off the bike and covered myself as best I could with my rain jacket. Can't believe anybody rode in a Hailstorm. that's dangerous!

Put me on your ignore list 1550, I'll do the same!

When your in the middle of nowhere and there is zero cover you have 2 choices. 1. Stop along side the road and stand in it, or 2. keep riding, I'll take my chances riding. I'm not dumb, but you could call me a loose nut or at least some of the folks at the Harley dealer I used to do business with thought I was. Normally I'm the person who rolls up in weather that makes most just stay inside and call it a day. I've been through more than 1 hail storm, snow, sleet, I've lost count of the many downpours of rain complete with high winds and lightning I've ridden through.

This year my dad and I were caught in another hail storm while in SD, we were putting on our rain gear when dime size hail started. There was a guy who stopped and warned us not to go the direction we were headed because they had baseball sized hail. I can deal with dime size but baseball is a bit extreme for me so we turned tail and run from it.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Hey #3......good thing he had his lowers off. Skin and wounds on the body will heal. If the fairings get skinned....that's a paint job!:D

He got some dents in his front fender, showed up real good on a black bike.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Yep....there just ain't that many overpasses and interstate bridges out there in the middle of Montana, or the Dakota's....even trees for that matter. Sometimes.....you're stuck with what you have. I have seen dents on gas tanks as well.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

When your in the middle of nowhere and there is zero cover you have 2 choices. 1. Stop along side the road and stand in it, or 2. keep riding, I'll take my chances riding. I'm not dumb, but you could call me a loose nut or at least some of the folks at the Harley dealer I used to do business with thought I was. Normally I'm the person who rolls up in weather that makes most just stay inside and call it a day. I've been through more than 1 hail storm, snow, sleet, I've lost count of the many downpours of rain complete with high winds and lightning I've ridden through.

This year my dad and I were caught in another hail storm while in SD, we were putting on our rain gear when dime size hail started. There was a guy who stopped and warned us not to go the direction we were headed because they had baseball sized hail. I can deal with dime size but baseball is a bit extreme for me so we turned tail and run from it.

Msocko3, I apologize for the Dumb remark. You are obviously a determined rider if you ride in Hailstorms. I've ridden in bad weather many times. I remember when my bike was my only transportation. I've left for work many mornings in the rain. Even road in light snow! But Hail is a different story. Maybe one of the reason's was, I never had a windshield on any of my bikes until about 10 years ago. Now I'm pushing 70 and I can't stand wind in my eye's anymore. I still pull my windshield off occasionally and use goggles. I still ride around 20K a year, but Hail is another story. If I get caught in it, I'm stopping and taking whatever cover I can find no matter where I'm at. JMO
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I'm beging to think I made a mistake. I bought a Tri Glide a couple weeks ago and after reading all about the heat problem with them I'm worried. My '03 (88) and my last bike 2010 Limited(103) were HOT. Can't imagine what it's going to be like on the trike.
I've always removed the lowers, but can't now because of the speakers that are there.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Gary....let me share something with you. It won't do you a bit of good, but it may help some others. Research.....research.....research. I was within writing the check for a brand new TG back when the 09's came out....just had to have one. Then....I decided to wait a while and do some more research. The TG's were new then, but bit-by-bit parts-n-pieces of information begin to emerge. Obviously, I never purchased one.

I had already paid the "Harley Tax" with the introduction of the much touted Twin Cam back in 1999. I was stupid enough to purchase two and went through all the cam bearing and tensioner shoe issues TWICE. I finally figured out that one should never purchase the first model-year of any new Harley introduction. By the time the third model-year of the TG came out....I was well past ever wanting to own one, mainly because of this forum.

There are some very good TG's out there. Some because the owner took it upon themselves to make it run and many others got lucky and received a good one right off the bat, so I hear.

You will just have to follow the forum here where you will find many good sources of information from very good mechanics and techno-geeks (like Wizard)....who can fix any ills you may have. All you have to do is open the wallet.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Msocko3, I apologize for the Dumb remark. You are obviously a determined rider if you ride in Hailstorms.

It's all good, you could call me determined, my wife has been known to call me something else:D. For the most part I play the hand thats delt me, if I can take cover I'm all for it. If I'm in the wide open with nothing around I'll roll the dice and see how they come up. My dad has been known to ride in stuff most people won't ride in, maybe I got it from him:).
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Undertaker, Are ya sure water cooling would affect the sound of the exhaust? I can see where water cooling would stop the resonance frequency from vibrating cooling fins, possibly making the engine a little quieter, as well as the water jacket absorbing some noise.

Phu Cat
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

I'm beging to think I made a mistake. I bought a Tri Glide a couple weeks ago and after reading all about the heat problem with them I'm worried. My '03 (88) and my last bike 2010 Limited(103) were HOT. Can't imagine what it's going to be like on the trike.
I've always removed the lowers, but can't now because of the speakers that are there.

Taking off the lowers, etc. is merely a band-aid to the real problem of the engine generating too much heat.

The FIRST thing to do to ANY Harley is to address the performance and heat problems at the source. The EPA makes the MoCo restrict the intake and exhaust for emissions and decibel-level reasons, which robs the engine of the airfoil it needs to perform well, and causes the engine to generate a LOT of excess heat due to the very lean AFR the stock configuration has to use to get out of the factory.

The stock head pipes on 2010 and newer models also have a catalytic converter in the head pipe... right by your right foot. Cats run VERY HOT, adgratly resrict the exhaust flow... SO GET RID of the factory cat, and get good header pipes with no cat in them, like a Fullsac X-Pipe. With no cat right next to your right foot, the bike will be MUCH cooler. Get a free-flowing A/C like an Arlen Ness Big Sucker, and free flowing slip-on exhausts. Then use a good tuning device like TTS MasterTune unit to TUNE your bike to get optimum performance and a correct AFR throughout the RPM range. That will greatly mitigate the heat problem, as well as restore the performance you thought you were going to get from the factory.

Doing all of this is about a $800-$900 investment in the parts, plus installation if you can't or don't wish to do it yourself, plus the tune.... maybe up to $2000 or more if you have the installation and the tune done for you, less if you do the installation and/or the tune yourself.

I run the Fullsac X-Pipe "B" on both my 2012 CVO Street Glide and my wife's 2012 Tri Glide Ultra. I have a Big Sucker A/C on the trike, and the H-D Ventilator hi-flow A/C that came on the CVO. I run the Fullsac 2" PowerCores in the stock cans on the CVO, and I have a set of V&H Big Oval mufflers on the trike. I also run Andrews 54H cams in the CVO, and the stock H-D cams in the trick... but the cams will get changed out on the trike before too long, to ones that will enable the engine to breathe much better than the "EPA-pleaser" stock smog cams. Both bikes have a TTS unit for tuning... the CVO has been tuned to a gnat's azz by Mr. Wizard, and the trike will be soon.

Doing these performance modifications enables the engine to run MUCH better, deliver MUCH more power, and generate MUCH less heat.
 
Re: Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Like they say-if you can't take the heat get back into the kitchen

I agree totally! I returned my bike back to stock 2into2 header with cat and stock muffler's. Got tired of the noise! Bike runs great! no problem's with heat.
 

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