Spent a few hours with a Milwaukee-Eight Today - First Impressions Report

[DK Custom Products]

Spent a few hours with a Milwaukee-Eight Today - First Impressions Report

Went to a dealership today and spent a few hours with the M8.

First thing I did was ride a Street Glide (no one in our area has any 2017 Tri-Glides yet). Then after I rode it, Devin took it out for a spin.

We both experienced the same things-


It shakes less, but still has some.

The compensator is definitely better...how long it will last is yet to be seen.

The power comes on MUCH lower, and there is more of it. Bone stock it is, seat of the pants, very close to a typical Stage I 103, EXCEPT the power is there much lower in the RPM band.

On a 103 if you twist the throttle at 60 mph in 6th gear (not recommended) it will do close to nothing...it is just a dog, and is very apparent that it is lugging.

On the M8 107, same twist at 60 mph in 6th and off it goes.

There is less mechanical noise.

Exhaust sounded about the same as the 103's, but I imagine that with some slip-ons and with the M8 having a lower (850 RPM) idle, it will sound pretty good.

The EITMS still kicks on very easily. It does not seem to be ambient temp controlled.

After a short 11 mile circle it kicked on at 85* ambient for me, and then 87* ambient for Devin.

The cat is located further back on the bike, so there was not as much felt heat on the right leg from it.

The rear suspension is better than the HD air shocks, and better than HD's previous "premium coil-over" shocks, but still not anywhere near as smooth as some of the aftermarket shocks we've been testing.

Ride and handling seem the same otherwise.


I'll be riding some more next week, so may have additional impressions.


After the ride, we commenced to taking a closer look at the M8 engine.

Here are some hightlights-

To change the inside two spark plugs, the tank must be removed and a special set of pliers used to remove the plug wire from the spark plug.

The filter element is tiny for such a large air box.

HD is still using breather bolts and hoses to feed the blow-by into the filter element. The actual breather bolts are the exact same part # as what is in the Twin Cam, BUT, they are further toward the center of the rocker box.

They beefed up the trans shift arm.

This photo shows the 4 (four) spark plug wires coming out of the coil behind the rear cylinder. It also shows the oil return line for the oil that is used to cool the heads.

I did not get a pic of it, but the knock retard is not longer controlled via the ION sensing system via the plug wires. There are actual knock sensors in the cylinders.
Should work much better.

The liquid cooling on the Twin-Cooled engine still works the same.

On the non-Twin Cooled, there is an oil passage in the heads. Oil from the oil cooler is pumped to a splitter on top of the front rocker box. See pic below-

It then travels thru tubes, into the heads and runs between the two exhaust valves on each cylinder, circles around one of the exhaust valves and then exits out of the heads and into tubes that carry it to a single hose behind the rear cylinder. That single hose then routes the heated up oil into the oil tank. See pic below.

The oil cooler is larger than previous years, and looks pretty vulnerable to me. This bike with less than 50 miles on it already has a good sized ding in the fins.

This does not look or feel like a re-worked Twin Cam or Evo.

I just hope that it is well made, because it appears to be a giant step forward for HD powerplants!

I'm really looking forward to doing a Performance Plus Stage I on an M8. I think there is a lot more potential to "wake it up" than the Twin Cams have!


Kevin

 

[DK Custom]

Kevin,did you happen to notice what the oil pressure was, at operating temp, at idle?
I was going to ride one today also but it's been raining here, most of the day.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin,did you happen to notice what the oil pressure was, at operating temp, at idle?
I was going to ride one today also but it's been raining here, most of the day.

Good question Clint. I forgot to mention, the screen that shows ambient temp, oil pressure and EITMS on the '14-16's...it is the same screen on the '17's, BUT...

Instead of showing the oil pressure, it just says "OK". :laugh:

When you the engine is off, but the key is on it says "Check Oil". lol

I'm guessing/hoping there is a switch somewhere that will let you display the actual oil pressure.

Kevin

 

[Peter A.]

M8

VERY good initial report......looks like my Twin cam is a keeper for now (can't see enough improvement to see
the cost investment........on my fixed retirement).
Of coarse IF I win the lottery??????
:laugh:

 

[Capt.Bob]

Kevin,

You are just the person I was hoping would get a chance to try one of these out because you are so tuned into (pun intended) to the TC. I have a 2016 TGU and you are very correct about the lack of performance when twisting the throttle at 60 on the TC.

You stated "I just hope that it is well made, because it appears to be a giant step forward for HD powerplants!"

From your initial impressions, would there be some compelling reason(s) for someone like myself that has about 14k miles on my 2016 to consider moving into a 2017 TGU? I know you have not ridden one of them yet with the new M8 motor but just your speculations would be quite interesting at this juncture. I stopped by two Harley stores in the past couple of days while travelling downstate in Florida and saw three 2017 TGU's at Black Widow Harley in Port Charlotte, Florida. I also listened to a couple of M8's motoring out at the Gainesville Harley store on a demo ride and noticed how the engines make very little mechanical noise compared to my TC. Bob

The revision genie cut off my additional question which is, given that the M8 is brand new and has reportedly had about 1 million miles of testing, would it be prudent to consider changing rides into something that is so brand new given your concerns about hoping it is well made? Or would it be much wiser to pile up the miles on my 2016 and watch and listen over the coming year? This is a tough decision because there are balancing considerations in terms of depreciation, etc. Thanks for your thoughts. Bob

 

[Zammy]

Kevin, thanks for sharing all your info on the new M8. I guess time will tell how well it holds up, it sure sounds from your perspective that it is a strong motor.

 

[desertclassic]

Kevin, thanks for the report. I am still trying to figure out my 14 and I know there is much more to explore before I move to the next ride. Jim

 

[56Elwood]

I would have to echo the observations above. Rode a 2017 Ultra Limited with the 107 and I came away impressed. More power, smoother all around, less heat from the motor even in 85 degree temps, engine still rocks a little but not much. At highway speed (70mph) there was absolutely no vibration in the mirrors and none that I noticed in the grips. Nice suspension, handled potholes easily. Sitting in traffic I put my hand on the air filter housing and while it was very warm I would have to say it wasn't hot.
Looks like H-D has a winner here although I'm curious to see how the first production run of these fare after thousands of customer miles.

 

[Trampas]

Was thinking of a 2017 myself, but got a 2016 instead for now, with your report it sounds like harley may have a winner here, time will tell with the new motor, not sure why they didn't put the 110 in the triglide with the weight of it and put a bigger motor in the cvo's.


All for now Trampas

 

[Sunman]

Thanks for this report Kevin, great info and I am looking forward to more. Personally however I am happy with the 103 motor in my 2015 Freewheeler. My bike is still in basically stock condition. All I have done so far is a K & N air filter element, de-catted the head pipe and added the FL-VIED-10s. There is enough power for 2-up riding and the MPG is better than my GL-1800 trike. I may do a full stage 1 at some point but I don't feel that it is absolutely necessary. In the past I have always immediately upgraded my Harleys to at least a stage 1 but this time I am reasonably happy with the stock 103. Old age maybe or just finally realizing that there will always be a new, bigger motor, transmission with more gears, entertainment system with more features or something else to keep us spending that money. I am going to wait until my FW's mileage dictates a new bike or a major re-build and hopefully the new motor well proven by then.

I wonder if the new motor is going to cause the trade-in or resale value on our twin cam bikes to go down?

Sunman

 

[Bowler Jerry]

Rode a 2017 Triglide K C open house yesterday and was very impressed with the smoothness of the M8 and the power of it. Wanted to ride a 2017 Freewheeler , as I just bought a 2016 last month . They just had 1 so by noon they quite taking names . It had a lot less heat on right leg and shifted a whole lot smoother, not the loud clunk that my 2016 has.

 

[Capt.Bob]

I wonder if the new motor is going to cause the trade-in or resale value on our twin cam bikes to go down?
Sunman

Sunman, I was talking with a buddy of mine who was a former NHRA World Champion drag race car builder in the 1960'-70's who I had given a ride on my 2016 TGU in June and was mentioning the new M8 to him this morning. He said without knowing the details of the EPA actions that it sounded like Harley was placating the Feds and losing some of the characteristic Harley shake that makes them a Harley. He wondered why I would be interested in a trike that shook less, shifted better and didn't make as much mechanical engine noise? It got me to thinking, maybe my 2016 TGU is the last of a breed and may be more valuable to those of us who enjoy the nostalgia of the "old" Harley motors...

 

[Capt.Bob]

Sunman, I was talking with a buddy of mine who was a former NHRA World Champion drag race car builder in the 1960'-70's who I had given a ride on my 2016 TGU in June and was mentioning the new M8 to him this morning. He said without knowing the details of the EPA actions that it sounded like Harley was placating the Feds and losing some of the characteristic Harley shake that makes them a Harley. He wondered why I would be interested in a trike that shook less, shifted better and didn't make as much mechanical engine noise? It got me to thinking, maybe my 2016 TGU is the last of a breed and may be more valuable to those of us who enjoy the nostalgia of the "old" Harley motors...

Sunman, I don't think my Indy shop that kept my shovelhead (The Flying Banana) running would be interested in working on a M8. They like knucks, pans, shovels and evo's.

 

[TrikeDawg]

Kevin, did you find that the M8 ran cooler with the bigger oil cooler?

Im thinking that the engine runs hotter than the Twin Cam because of this add on cooling fan.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/coolflow-fan-pa-05-26800128--1

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin,

You are just the person I was hoping would get a chance to try one of these out because you are so tuned into (pun intended) to the TC. I have a 2016 TGU and you are very correct about the lack of performance when twisting the throttle at 60 on the TC.

You stated "I just hope that it is well made, because it appears to be a giant step forward for HD powerplants!"

From your initial impressions, would there be some compelling reason(s) for someone like myself that has about 14k miles on my 2016 to consider moving into a 2017 TGU? I know you have not ridden one of them yet with the new M8 motor but just your speculations would be quite interesting at this juncture. I stopped by two Harley stores in the past couple of days while travelling downstate in Florida and saw three 2017 TGU's at Black Widow Harley in Port Charlotte, Florida. I also listened to a couple of M8's motoring out at the Gainesville Harley store on a demo ride and noticed how the engines make very little mechanical noise compared to my TC. Bob

- - - Updated - - -



The revision genie cut off my additional question which is, given that the M8 is brand new and has reportedly had about 1 million miles of testing, would it be prudent to consider changing rides into something that is so brand new given your concerns about hoping it is well made? Or would it be much wiser to pile up the miles on my 2016 and watch and listen over the coming year? This is a tough decision because there are balancing considerations in terms of depreciation, etc. Thanks for your thoughts. Bob

Well, those are some loaded questions!

Because the engine is untested (HD's testing does not count in my book...only time, and many real-world Customer miles will tell if there are any design flaws, weak components, or poor workmanship), it is impossible for me to say "go for it".

That said, I did get my '14 Twin Cooled, which was the first year they had them...BUT, I did wait almost 7 months after they were released to do so.

I can only say what I would like to do, and what I will probably do...

Since Devin and I use our personal bikes to develop new parts, I would like to get two new M8's, an oil-cooled and Twin-Cooled, to use as development bikes. However, we are not a big company, and I am not sure we will be able to justify the cost.

Fortunately, to a certain extent, the local dealers let us test parts on their bikes (as you can see a bit from the photo's posted above).

What we will probably do is wait until the '18's come out, and if they are the same as the '17, then look at getting a good deal on some leftover '17's.


If I take DK out of the equation, and just look at myself and Mary riding the Tri-Glide...

We have already done everything to it to cool it down and have it running strong & smooth. We are very happy with it. The only reason to trade that in would be mechanical curiosity.

If we had Not done all that we have to the '14 to get it where it is, if it was still running very hot, not so strong, and stock suspension, then I would consider the M8, but being cautious, I would give it at least a few months and see if any serious issues popped up.

One other thing to take into consideration...they do have warranties, and if my bike/trike was secondary transportation, then that maybe justify taking a chance. However, I do not own a cage, so when something is in the shop for warranty work, it is a bit of a hassle for me.

Last thing...I have always shopped around, and waited to get leftover new, or slightly used, models around the time a new model year is being introduced. By doing this I take a large chunk of the depreciation hit out of the equation.

Kevin

 

[56Elwood]

Kevin, did you find that the M8 ran cooler with the bigger oil cooler?

Im thinking that the engine runs hotter than the Twin Cam because of this add on cooling fan.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/coolflow-fan-pa-05-26800128--1

My 2 cents here, I purposely put my hand on the heat shields on both sides while stopped in traffic. They were warm to the touch but not as hot as the same shields were on my 2007 Ultra Classic even after putting in Xied's (14's if I recall)
I absolutely HATE heat coming from the motor and I was fine with how this new motor ran, heat management works fine IMO.

 

[DK Custom Products]

Kevin, did you find that the M8 ran cooler with the bigger oil cooler?

Im thinking that the engine runs hotter than the Twin Cam because of this add on cooling fan.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/coolflow-fan-pa-05-26800128--1

Only rode it on a 11 mile loop, so did not get a feel for the heat.

In our Twin Cam testing we found that it takes around 45 minute of interstate riding for the Twin Cam to get up to full temps.

As soon as I can get my hands on an M8 for more than just a short ride, I will be doing some heat comparisons.

Kevin

 

[Sunman]

Capt. Bob, that is one cool looking Shovel. I still have a 1979 FLH that I have made into a bobber. It has been sitting for awhile but I have been working on it and should have it running in about a month. Can't ride it much though cause my old back won't take the pounding but it is fun! Attached is a picture.

Sunman

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Capt.Bob]

Well, those are some loaded questions!

Because the engine is untested (HD's testing does not count in my book...only time, and many real-world Customer miles will tell if there are any design flaws, weak components, or poor workmanship), it is impossible for me to say "go for it".

Since Devin and I use our personal bikes to develop new parts, I would like to get two new M8's, an oil-cooled and Twin-Cooled, to use as development bikes. However, we are not a big company, and I am not sure we will be able to justify the cost...


If I take DK out of the equation, and just look at myself and Mary riding the Tri-Glide...

We have already done everything to it to cool it down and have it running strong & smooth. We are very happy with it. The only reason to trade that in would be mechanical curiosity.

If we had Not done all that we have to the '14 to get it where it is, if it was still running very hot, not so strong, and stock suspension, then I would consider the M8, but being cautious, I would give it at least a few months and see if any serious issues popped up.

One other thing to take into consideration...they do have warranties, and if my bike/trike was secondary transportation, then that maybe justify taking a chance. However, I do not own a cage, so when something is in the shop for warranty work, it is a bit of a hassle for me.

Last thing...I have always shopped around, and waited to get leftover new, or slightly used, models around the time a new model year is being introduced. By doing this I take a large chunk of the depreciation hit out of the equation.

Kevin

Kevin, I made my fourth and what I think will be final trip to a different Harley dealership today. I of course rode my 2016 TGU that has your company's Comfort Lift Kit and Floor Board Extenders which I love! In riding to my fourth dealership in a five-day period all over the State of Florida as well as a dealership in GA, I realized two things. Like you and Mary with your 2014 TGU, I love my 2016 TGU that I have made to fit me and bring great enjoyment. Additionally, since this is a Trike forum, I can safely say without getting roasted that the 2015 Can-Am Spyder F3-S factory demonstrator I bought with 6k miles a couple of months ago satisfies my need for a bit more horsepower (115 at the crank) with less heat/vibration and a chassis that can take turns even faster than my Tri Glide since I added some extra performance enhancements to that trike. The Rotax 1330 engine is a really sophisticated lump that I realized satisfies my need for the latest/greatest which is a bit like chasing my own tail. So, to make a long story short, I don't see a M8 Tri Glide in my immediate or intermediate future. One of the nice things about having two very dissimilar trikes is that they both fit niches that the other does not and that is a good thing:clapping:

Lastly, I have about 14k on my 10 month old TGU and the tire will be needing replacement in the next couple of thousand miles. I would like to try your recommended Dunlop American Elite and would like to know the specific rear size you get and where are a couple of places where they can be found mail-order. I think I have seen them for about $150 shipped but not sure if I am looking at the correct tire? I have a dealer that will install the Dunlop backwards and is intrigued by the reported longevity. Thanks for your help with my decision process and the info on the front tire that is actually made to be a rear tire for the TGU. Bob

 

[DK Custom Products]

We are working on a short video right now. Should be on Youtube later today where you can see how much/little vibration there is in the engine and handlebars.


Also will be able to hear the exhaust note at an idle and while blipping the throttle.


In the meantime, here's a photo of the "oil pressure".

Kevin

- - - Updated - - -

Kevin, I made my fourth and what I think will be final trip to a different Harley dealership today. I of course rode my 2016 TGU that has your company's Comfort Lift Kit and Floor Board Extenders which I love! In riding to my fourth dealership in a five-day period all over the State of Florida as well as a dealership in GA, I realized two things. Like you and Mary with your 2014 TGU, I love my 2016 TGU that I have made to fit me and bring great enjoyment. Additionally, since this is a Trike forum, I can safely say without getting roasted that the 2015 Can-Am Spyder F3-S factory demonstrator I bought with 6k miles a couple of months ago satisfies my need for a bit more horsepower (115 at the crank) with less heat/vibration and a chassis that can take turns even faster than my Tri Glide since I added some extra performance enhancements to that trike. The Rotax 1330 engine is a really sophisticated lump that I realized satisfies my need for the latest/greatest which is a bit like chasing my own tail. So, to make a long story short, I don't see a M8 Tri Glide in my immediate or intermediate future. One of the nice things about having two very dissimilar trikes is that they both fit niches that the other does not and that is a good thing:clapping:

Lastly, I have about 14k on my 10 month old TGU and the tire will be needing replacement in the next couple of thousand miles. I would like to try your recommended Dunlop American Elite and would like to know the specific rear size you get and where are a couple of places where they can be found mail-order. I think I have seen them for about $150 shipped but not sure if I am looking at the correct tire? I have a dealer that will install the Dunlop backwards and is intrigued by the reported longevity. Thanks for your help with my decision process and the info on the front tire that is actually made to be a rear tire for the TGU. Bob

The rear tire I'm running, reversed, up front is a Dunlop American Elite- MT90 B16 74H.

If you give Devin a call at 662-252-8828, he can probably get you the best price on it.

Kevin

 

[Capt.Bob]

Kevin, Gave Devin a call and he has a rear Dunlop American Elite rear tire coming to me at a great price for the front of my Harley TGU. Thanks to you, Devin and Kelsey for the help! Bob

 

[DK Custom Products]

Here's the Youtube video. Exhaust sounds pretty good for stock.



Kevin

 

[desertclassic]

Kevin that is a nice sound for a stock. Jim

 

[Capt.Bob]

Kevin, Gave Devin a call and he has a rear Dunlop American Elite rear tire coming to me at a great price for the front of my Harley TGU. Thanks to you, Devin and Kelsey for the help! Bob

Wow, I sure hope that the MOCO takes a page from the playbook of DK Custom Products. I ordered the Dunlop American Elite rear tire to be placed on my TGU on August 30th and the darn thing was sitting on my doorstep in Florida this afternoon. Less than two working days after I placed my order. The cool thing is that the price was better than I could find anywhere and Devin/Kevin's staff is so efficient and friendly in taking your order. It is a real pleasure to support our website sponsors.epper:

 

[HDB0B]

So .... the head cooling is tied into the engine oil .... except for the Water Cooled option in which case the same passages are cooled with coolant supplied by a water pump and radiators.

WHAT advantage does one have over the other? MoCo is still supporting 2 different systems.

Currently you can drive the WC103 for a short distance with a non-functioning water pump .... Will this still be an option for the WC-M8? I'm thinking it will not as it seems that the heads MUST be cooled.

They say the converter is further "down stream" .... Where exactly is it now?

Same mufflers or different?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[GARYD]

Mufflers are different and I really really don't like the look. :AGGHH:

 

[DK Custom Products]

So .... the head cooling is tied into the engine oil .... except for the Water Cooled option in which case the same passages are cooled with coolant supplied by a water pump and radiators.

WHAT advantage does one have over the other? MoCo is still supporting 2 different systems.

Currently you can drive the WC103 for a short distance with a non-functioning water pump .... Will this still be an option for the WC-M8? I'm thinking it will not as it seems that the heads MUST be cooled.

They say the converter is further "down stream" .... Where exactly is it now?

Same mufflers or different?

Thanks,

Bob

Easy thing first. Yes, the catalytic converter is further downstream, by about 8 inches. It starts right about at the beginning of the front of the passenger floorboard.

No, you cannot use the same slip-on mufflers. The M8 slip-ons are very different than previous years (the crossover pipe is also totally different).


Not sure why, but the channels for the oil cooled heads are DIFFERENT than the channels for the water cooled heads. They are Not interchangeable, and the actual path taken by the channels is slightly different.

So they have the:

Air cooled Twin Cams
Twin Cooled Twin Cams
Oil Cooled Milwaukee-Eights
Twin Cooled Milwaukee-Eights

Too soon to have any test data, but it seems that the Twin Cooled M8's will run cooler than the oil cooled M8's.

However there are more components that could fail on the Twin Cooled than the oil cooled.

I would not ride either of them if their circulation failed. I suppose it is possible, though not advisable, to run a little ways on the twin cooled with no coolant flowing.

On the oil cooled, the same pump and the same oil cooler that is used for the oil cooled heads are also used for the rest of the engine...so if one failed, so will the other. I would not run the engine 10 seconds with no oil pressure.

Kevin

 

[GoSlo]

Got to ride a 17 TG this past weekend and while it's too early to tell if it's good or bad, here's my impressions compared to my 2013 TG on a short demo ride at Thunder in the Rockies. Many of these are "because it's different", but may be something to keep in mind if you're thinking of upgrading.

• Really liked the sound of the stock mufflers
• Hated the hydraulic clutch. Maybe it wasn't adjusted right, but it was really difficult to use and to make things worse, the clutch lever was so far out from the grip that I could barely reach it. Seemed to have no "friction zone" at all, but maybe that's normal for a hydraulic clutch?
• Much easier to find neutral for some reason
• Missed seeing the words on the switches instead of the new symbols
• Loved how quiet it is. When I ride mine with no helmet all I hear are bings, bangs, pops, etc. This one made almost none of those sounds
• Much better low end torque when taking off. Couldn't really test it because the person leading the test ride wouldn't go fast enough
• While they claim they got rid of the clunk going into first gear (never really bothered me) there was a clunk in every single gear that I shifted into. Maybe it's still too new to have broken in?

A fried rode the Ultra Limited and he loved it. Did notice quite a difference in the stiffness of the front forks.

Not a scientific or even a qualified review, just my two cents worth on what I saw/felt/heard.

 

[clint44]

H-D National Open House and Demo Days are happening at my local dealer, this Saturday. If all goes as planned, I plan to ride a number of new bikes and trikes there. Would like to ride a new TG and a Breakout or Fatboy Low, for sure.

 

[Springman2007]

My local had Demo Days last Saturday and I did spend some time rider on TWO-WHEELS again....that was NICE! I did get a chance to ride and look at a tourer with an M8 It was a very good ride....

But, I began to wonder about the extra service and care the M8 will most likely have/need. I don't know, for all its good, I am sort of happy I have a TC103....of course that may change as the M8 gets out there and I get more practical user feedback on it....

I have to say that out of all the rides, I liked the 2017 FATBOB (TC103) the best.....I think that bike with an M8 may be a interesting ride..........

Springman